Yes, the Romans were pantheists, but their government was not theocratic. I
thought, too, that I did include the witch trials and the Inquisition--by
implication, if not outright explicit example.  Christianity in it's
original form--observed at a local level by autonomous chirches--only lasted
less than a hundred years after the final Pauline letter (about 160 A.D.).
Centralization of the church, for which there was no "scriptural" precedent,
began about this time and culminated in the "Romanization" of the church by
Constantine.  I think Ken may agree with me, but I consider the "church" to
be apostate from about 160 A.D. up until the various Restoration movements
of the late 18th/early 19th century.

Folks who advocate teaching Judeo-Christian beliefs in public school would
do well to remember why the "Puritans" fled England in the first place--to
escape nationalized religion.  I'm probably as strong a proponent of
religion/state separation as anyone.

It pains me to think that folks equate biblical Christianity with 1900 years
of Roman/Macedonian influence.

Kyle

-----Original Message-----
From: Trisha Cummings
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 10/1/03 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: religion and politics (long-ish);  was RE: Brother in Law

Hi Ken,

   That was more a comment against the godless Romans - one doesn't have
to be Godless to be barbaric.

                              Trisha

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ken barber [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:46 PM
> To:   [log in to unmask]
> Subject:      Re: religion and politics (long-ish);  was RE: Brother
in Law
>
> there has been many atrosities committed in the name
> of G-d that he had nothing to do with it.
>
> --- Trisha Cummings <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Oh Kyle,
> >
> >    I love it, when you get into the fray. The only
> > correction I would =
> > add  - The Romans were not godless, they had a
> > pantheon of Gods - they =
> > where no different than any of the other ancient
> > civilizations - we =
> > can't judge those civilizations with our morals - it
> > took building on =
> > those societies to get where we are today. And if do
> > - then we need to =
> > remember - the Burning tImes and the Spanish
> > Inquistion - no one gets =
> > away scot free - despite everything we know - we
> > still don't really act =
> > like civilized people. We just have a slightly
> > higher level of barberism =
> > today.
> >
> >                                           Trisha
> >
> >
> > Trisha Cummings,   Data Analyst  =20
> > Synectics For Management Decisions, Inc
> > 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 900
> > Arlington, Virginia 22209
> > Ph# 703-807-2345
> > Fax 703-528-6421
> >
> >
> > > What gets me is that many conservative Christians
> > (which describes ME =
> > in
> > > only in basic theology) feel that the US should
> > be/was a theocracy.  =
> > If they
> > > would only read the teachings of the individual
> > they purport to
> > > follow--Jesus--they would understand that the
> > biblical theocracy only =
> > went
> > > as far as Israel (ex. Mt 22:15-22, the entire
> > chapter of Acts 28).
> > >=20
> > > In the New Testament, the church is not expected
> > to function as a =
> > nation
> > > state. On the contrary, the program is clearly
> > different as witnessed =
> > by the
> > > call to submit to, and obey the Roman
> > government--one of the most =
> > godless
> > > and brutal governments in history. (Rom. 13:1) The
> > New Testament is =
> > devoid
> > > of any call to take over society or to run society
> > God's way. =
> > Unfortunately,
> > > many Bible interpreters continue to read the
> > Covenantal promises and
> > > warnings addressed to Israel in the Old Testament
> > as though they apply
> > > either to the church, or to the United States (or
> > other countries).
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > A very common example of this confusion is the
> > often quoted passage in =
> > 2
> > > Chronicles 7:13 "If I shut up the heavens so that
> > there is no rain, or =
> > if I
> > > command the locust to devour the land, or if I
> > send pestilence among =
> > My
> > > people, and My people who are called by My name
> > humble themselves and =
> > pray,
> > > and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways,
> > then I will hear =
> > from
> > > heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
> > their land." It is a =
> > mistake
> > > to apply this passage to the United States? It
> > refers to the
> > > cursing/blessing section in the book of
> > Deuteronomy. The people who =
> > are
> > > called by God's name are Israel. There is in fact
> > no such promise =
> > extended
> > > to other countries.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > One qualification is needed on this point. In the
> > ancient world, there =
> > was
> > > no opportunity to vote on government issues or
> > candidates. We do not =
> > know
> > > what God would have said if there was. Probably, a
> > good ethical case =
> > can be
> > > made for Christian activism in politics as long as
> > it falls short of
> > > attempts to establish a Christian state.
> > >=20
> > > History is full of examples of catastrophic
> > results when the church =
> > has
> > > concluded that it is to run the state. A nation>
> > state often has to =
> > operate
> > > in the area of compulsion, punishment and even
> > war. All of these =
> > things are
> > > inappropriate for the church. The church needs to
> > keep crystal clear
> > > loyalties, excluding any non-biblical insertion
> > into Christian =
> > doctrine.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Manipulators use values similar or even identical
> > to those in the =
> > Bible to
> > > get Christians to back their agendas. For
> > instance, no two themes are =
> > more
> > > universal in world religions than the sanctity of
> > the family and the
> > > sacredness of the given cultural-national
> > heritage. Oriental religion =
> > often
> > > actually worships parents and ancestors. Islam
> > views the state as =
> > expressly
> > > a religious entity. Most oral religions are one
> > and the same as the
> > > government of the tribe. This has tended to be
> > true of Christianity as =
> > well
> > > in Europe. The medieval church was convinced that
> > the state was to =
> > operate
> > > under the spiritual authority of the church.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Linking the universal appeal of blood and soil
> > values with patriotic =
> > values>=20
> > > and religion leads to the formation of a civil
> > religion which is =
> > sometimes
> > > only nominally Christian. For instance, the
> > implication of a prominent
> > > evangelical leading whole football stadiums in
> > prayer before games is =
> > clear-
> > > -all or most of those present must be Christians.
> > It is easy to see =
> > why
> > > people begin to believe that Christianity is
> > synonymous with American
> > > citizenship or church membership.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > This nominal Christianity is one of the most
> > deadly threats to real
> > > Christianity for two reasons. In the first place,
> > it causes people to
> > > believe that they are Christians when they are
> > not, and secondly, it
> > > misrepresents Christianity to the secular world.
> > Instead of seeing =
> > real
> > > vibrant spiritual living on the part of the
> > church, society sees a
> > > Christianity that is plagued by confusion and
> > mediocrity.
> > >=20
> > > Stepping, sweating, off the soapbox pulpit.
> > Anybody got any snakes I =
> > can
> > > handle?  I hear that snake venom is good for
> > spasms...wait a minute, =
> > never
> > > mind, that's honeybees, not snakes.
> > >=20
> > > Kyle
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ken barber [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:34 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Brother in Law
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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