Hi Ward,

<< I tend to think similarly. No matter how odious, objectionable, hateful,
spiteful, misguided, etc., people can be, I believe that most people (perhaps
not all, but most) are well-intentioned. >>

It has taken me a lifetime to accept the fact that there are actually people,
plenty of people, who are so confused, that they actually can rationalize even
the most evil and cruel behavior. Take for example a gang of hoodlums, who go
around the neighborhood and terrorize, maul and mutiliate senior citizens, for
the fun of beating up on something weak. I have known many teenagers who are
angry enough at being wrongfully abused by their parents, school, cops, social
workers, etc. to be able in their confusion to justify acts of violence as
"getting back" at the world for treating them bad, and finally taking control
and sticking up for oneself and not having to be a victim anymore.

But I would not call this "well-intentioned." I would call it massive
confusion, leading to evil cruelty.

Or take the cold-blooded, completely aware plotting of whoever it is in the
upper levels of a corporation who makes the decisions to push upon the public
a drug that they KNOW will kill people, cause cancer, have hideous "side-
effects," just because they are so hopelessly greedy that they cannot control
their own self interests, no matter who is hurt.  I would not call this "well-
intentioned" either, and there is plenty of this kind of greedy, selfish
thinking in the world today.

Or when your mechanic knows you're stupid enough to be able to rip you off,
and he knows exactly what he's doing. He just needs the money, at whoever's
expense.

Like I say, it has taken me a long, long, long, long time to accept the fact
that people knowingly choose evil, knowing full well that its evil, and that
they have a choice. For whatever reasons, I spent most of my life stubbornly
insisting that peoplejust don't do that. That if they have breaches of
integrity, they don't realize it, and can be excused.

Actually, I don't think that's the case! ;-)) I think there are LOADS of
people out there who know exactly what they're doing, and it just doesn't
bother them that other people suffer because of their actions. The older I
get, and the more people who's heads I have an opportunity to get inside of,
the more I have to say that this seems to be part of how we get screwed up.

I don't believe anyone - not anyone ever - starts out that way. I believe
there is an inherent human nature, which is 100% benign, loving, cooperative,
deeply connected to all other living things, caring, full of life and love and
enthusiasm and a sense of their own power, and vastly intelligent.

But I do believe that people get mightily screwed up, sometimes mighty fast,
and that there are a bunch of oppressors and opportunists and exploiters and
abusers out there.

<< How do we distinguish between "normal" enthusiasm and fanaticism or
zealotry? Is it only a matter of degree or is there some key distinguishing
characteristic? >>

I think the difference is the person's ability to think flexibly, instead of
the rigid non-thinking. By this I don't mean "open-minded' in the "liberal"
sense, where absolutely any wacko notion is entertained in the name of some
dumb liberal pretense about being open-minded, but I do think that thoughtful
and intelligent consideration of all new information is what makes the
difference. And being flexible - being able to change or modify or be creative
with an idea.

<< What exactly is it that makes a fanatic fanatical? I.e., what is the
underlying psychological motivation (perhaps/probably unconscious)? >>

Nothing too mysterious or glamorous, in my experience. Usually people have,
like you say, an underlying psychological motivation that is entirely
personal, which is what gives them "juice." Like, for instance, (and I can
think of a million for-instances from the many people I've worked with over
the years - 100 for-instances for each person ;-))  ), an easy example of the
person who's mother's life is wrecked by her alcoholism, and vows at age 4 to
make sure that no other persob on this earth will ever suffer like that. So
they become "driven" to "save" the world ( like they wish they could've saved
their mother) from the horrors of alcoholism. Personal things like that are
what drive people. Sometimes it takes a good form, sometimes a weird form.

<< And especially how does that differ from someone we would call "reasonable"
but merely enthusiastic (say a kateboarder :-) )? >>

Well, a skateboarder isn't trying to make anyone else into a skateboarder. And
I guess, you might worry about the skateboarder, if (s)he started to make
irrational decisions like having to skateboard 56 hours straight, through the
ice and snow, or something funny like that.

<< Are there differences between fanatics and proselytizers? That is, if one
is a fanatic, does that automatically make them more prone to unwanted or
disrespectful, "evangelical" proselytizing that demonizes or puts down those
not in the fold? >>

Not necessarily, I wouldn't think.

<< Or are there "benign" fanatics that are perfectly happy doing what they do
without the compulsively felt need to convert everyone around them? >>

Yeah - like the skateboarder. Or me, with dancing, where I have been called a
fanatic. I think you might love dancing, cause to me its sooooooo fun, but
then again, not everyone does.

<< If so, why is one type of fanatic benign and the other "toxic" to the
people around them?
>>

"Toxic" to me means that the person is not thinking about OTHER people,
instead of about themself. That is how I define that word. If I am thinking
about you, really thinking about you in an intelligent way, then I am not
"toxic" for you. If I'm thinking about me, at your expense, then I AM "toxic."
This is why I call the NFL group "toxic" (though I don't usually use that
word) - because their interestes are purely selfish and greedy, not at all
based on caring about other people or a genuine interest in helping others.

<< Given enough experience with them, it's pretty easy for someone ELSE to
distinguish a fanatic. Why can't the fanatic THEMSELVES tell that they are
being fanatical? >>

Because it's harder to see yourself clearly, since you're "inside" your own
"stuff." I've had to be told over and over and over again that I am too blunt
and tactless, because it is almost impossible for me to tell when I'm being
that way.

<< What is it like from the inside so that one believes they are being
reasonable while everyone else thinks they are way out of line and crossing
commonly accepted boundaries for normal or healthy behavior between human
beings? >>

I have no idea - but I do know I would DEFINATELY not want to be in there.
Whew! Think about that - would you ever like to be inside someone else's head
instead of your own? Shudder. Yuk. Eeeeew.

<< Also - what do people think the difference is between fanatical,
objectionable proselytizing and a more healthy approach to spreading awareness
of something that one believes has merit? >>

Now that is a GREAT question!!!  ;-))  A question that is really important,
useful, challenging, and deserves some good thought, in my opinion.  I've
thought a lot about it myself, and have a few ideas (but your terrific post
here caught me JUST on my way out the door - so I'm actually making myself
late by answering). To do this subject justice, I think I will answer late
tonight, or tomorrow, when I get back.

Thanks loads, Ward, for a juicy, thought-provoking post. I'm interested to
hear your own ideas about the questions you raised.

Lots of Love, Liza
[log in to unmask] (Liza May)