Martin, your numerous contributions leave me the impression of a principled
and well intentioned person who wants the right thing to happen.  However,
I think that you give up too easily on pacifism.  Think of the progress
that resulted from Ghandi, Mandela, and masses of people involved in
anti-slavery movements, labour movements, women's movements, environmental
movements, peace movements, and so many more.  There will not be a utopia
in this plane of existence, but change  and improvements do occur, often
quite improbably so.  History, including current history, is full of
examples of this.  It may seem improbable, but then again people of our
generation also didn't believe that the Iron Curtain would be voluntarily
removed, did they?  Maybe we limit ourselves too much by imagining that
something can't be done  instead of commiting ourselves to  making it
happen.

Dan Koenig

Martin William Smith wrote:

> John Korber writes:
> > Martin wrote:
> > >You can say it, but then you must also say these things.........
> >
> >         War and violence should always be opposed. You have to work
> > to get all people to agree to that. Any support of it will only make
> > the likelihood of the continued use of violence in the future
> > increase. There is always the possibility of ending violence. Why
> > support anything else, but peace? Working for peace through peaceful
> > nonviolent activism doesn't imply passivity.
>
> But I don't believe that war and violence should always be opposed.  I
> have tried to believe it, but I don't believe it.  If I encounter a
> man beating or raping a child or a woman, I will use force to stop
> him.  That is a use of violence.  I'm not going to try to justify it.
> I accept that it is using evil to stop evil, but it is a situation in
> which I would not hesitate to use it.  I have come to believe that
> this comes partly from instinct and partly from conscience.  I am not
> trying to use biology to avoid personal responsibility.  I simply mean
> there is a biological reaction in my brain chemistry that urges me to
> act with force in such situations.  I can conjure it by imagining
> myself in such a situation.  The conscience part is probably learned.
> I would feel guilty if I did not act immediately and the child or
> woman suffered because of my inaction.
>
> I'm not trying to compare the above example with the situation in
> Kosovo.  I am only trying to illustrate how I recognize that I am not
> an absolute pacifist.  I have come to believe that absolute pacifism
> is as non-human as is aggression.
>
> I think the "line" between situations in which violence should be used
> and situations in which violence should not be used (for me) will be
> the kind of situation where I would hesitate rather than act
> immediately.  In the above situation, I would act immediately upon
> recognizing the situation.  It would still be using evil to stop evil,
> but so be it.  In the situation in Kosovo, I would hesitate (and there
> was long hesitation by NATO), so I would not use violence there.
>
> > >Peoples' choices are involved
> > >every step of the way.  Some of those choices are NATO choices; some
> > >are Serb army choices.  Some were IMF choices.
> >
> >         What choices do you have? What things can you do to further
> > peace?  It's obviously something you are concerned with. You
> > suggested I go to Kosovo and teach peace. Actually people I work
> > with have already been there, as well as to Iraq. They left me with
> > plenty of work to do here in NYC. If you are interested in helping
> > out with a peace causes, you can make a big difference in someone's
> > life (and improve your Norwegian listening and speaking skills) be
> > contacting:
>
> > Tore Vik
> > [log in to unmask]
> > [log in to unmask]
> > With greetings from Tore Vik and the
> > Rainbow Antiracist Organisation Troms
> > ++47 77619950  ++47 907 32685
> > homepage:http://www.student.uit.no/regnbuen/index.html
>
> I have noticed the organization in the news.  But I don't want to do
> that work.  I had already decided to send money to the accounts
> advertised on Norwegian TV, which include the Red Cross and Save The
> Children.  I will be sending that money as soon as possible.  The
> Norwegian government is taking in at least 6000 refugees starting
> today, I believe, and I am glad my tax payments will be used to
> finance their stay.  But I don't want to be a peace activist.  I'm not
> interested in doing that kind of work.  Does that sound callous?  I
> suppose it does, but at the end of the day, I still don't want to
> spend my life that way.
>
> I don't have the drive to do that kind of work, and I think one large
> reason is because I see that it is not a solution.  I'm an engineer.
> I solve problems.  There is no such thing as a grass roots engineer.
> You find the problem and you fix it.  That's one of the reasons why I
> like the Norwegian system of government.  It uses a good blend of
> socialist and capitalist methods to solve problems.  The political
> parties don't spend a lot of time arguing, and they don't waste time
> tearing each other down.  When a problem comes up, they fix it.  If
> the fix doesn't work, they fix it again.
>
> I just don't want to spend my life working for peace in a system that
> is structured in a way that guarantees I will fail.  I believe the
> system is structured that way, so I see no virtue in raging against
> it, pacifically *or* violently.  Chomsky has revealed how the system
> works.  I can find no error in his analyses.  A large part of his
> message is that the system will always react this way.  He spends most
> of his time on revealing this and precious little on designing a
> solution.  But I'm an engineer; as an engineer I can only commit to
> designing a solution.  It's what I do.
>
> I know there are people with minds like yours out there.  More power
> to you.  Even though I believe and say to you that the structure of
> the system will prevent your success, you will keep going.  I respect
> that, even though I will refuse to do it myself.  I will send money to
> organizations of people like you, but I don't want to spend my life
> doing that kind of work.  I'll be 50 years old next year, and for many
> of those years I had more trouble with depression than one person
> should have.  Yet even though the pain I went through remains the
> worst thing I can imagine, I can't compare it to the pain of suffering
> in Yugoslavia, and in other places.  It is vital for those people just
> to know there are organizations and people like you trying to help.
> But I have seen behind the curtain and I think I know how the machine
> works.  I am an engineer.  I am either bold enough or foolish enough
> to believe I can fix it.
>
> martin
>
> Martin Smith                    Email: [log in to unmask]
> P.O. Box 1034 Bekkajordet       Tel. : +47 330 35700
> N-3194 HORTEN, Norway           Fax. : +47 330 35701