> >Jim
> I normally eat carbs, yes, but not out of any belief
> that they are in any way necessary.
> 
> Mike
> When you eat carbs which ones do you tend to eat?
> 
> Have you found that you are able to gain weight while
> sticking to your exercise routine without carbs?
> 

I'm a little confused by the question.  My goal is to lose a little bit of weight -- I struggle slightly with my weight creeping upwards not downwards.  And even though I may be at zero carbs, I can still gain weight if I eat too much protein.  Perhaps its just simply calories or maybe gluconeogenesis.

> >Jim
> Anyway, Phinney shows that carbs are unnecessary but
> that you have to allow time for adaptation.  
> 
> Mike
> Did he show that his subjects were able to gain weight
> (muscle mass) while eating no carbs?  I seem to
> remember that they were exercising on a treadmill, not
> weight lifting.  
> 
Oh I get your question above now.  It's an interesting question.  Yes, I'd love to gain muscle mass and don't know if I am or not as I'm simply measuring overall weight.  And, yes, his subjects were doing "aerobic" work.  He DID show though that they didn't lose any muscle.

> Mike
> How much fat do you include in your diet?  What are
> your sources of fat?  In the past I
> have included significant amount of olive oil (along
> with eating red meat).  Olive oil doesn't seem to work
> well for me.  My reliance on olive oil is in part
> based on Rosedale's dietary recommendations.  I am
> thinking that I need to increase saturated fat.  I
> have allergy symptoms from egg and coconut and have
> found the need to limit the amount of meat I eat. 
> Therefore, I am experimenting a bit with ghee
> (non-paleo, I know).  In part I am trying this because
> of an account in Lutz's book about the under weight
> guy who included significant amount of fat from dairy.
>  (I can search through the book for the pages if you
> are interested).  What do you do to make fats work for
> you?

Well, I avoid dairy like the plague.  See Cordain's most recent newsletter for yet another reason why: http://www.thepaleodiet.com/newsletter/newsletters/PDNCourierVol2No5.pdf  And it appears that dairy fat may contain the highest concentration of betacellulin.

I'm in the same boat with you with respect to fat.  I do consume a lot of fat from grassfed beef (75% lean hamburger) and coconut oil.  But I also drench my foods with a lot of olive oil too in order to bring the calories up.  I have zero fear of saturated fat BTW.  But whatever the fat composition of grassfed beef is ought to be perfect.

Mike > Personally, I find that after
> eating no fruit or starches for a several days
> (probably 4 on average) I have trouble. 

Phinney warns that there are three things vital to this moderate protein, low carb diet.  Number one is time for adaptation.  It takes at least a week, probably more like three or four, to fully adapt.  And one thing he doesn't mention is that the fat burning that will inevitably occur will release quite a few stored toxins and make you feel sick.  That's good, though it doesn't feel that way.

> 
> BTW do you know if Stephen Phinney is related to Davis
> Phinney?  I read a book a while back (15 years ago)
> authored by Davis Phinney who was a professional
> cyclist.

I don't know.  Both Davis and his wife Pam *are* physicians I believe.  I wondered that too.

Jim