AMEN!!!!!!!!!

--
Christ is either Lord of all or he is not Lord at all.
Karen Carter '74



> Angel,
>
> Christians are indeed the largest hypocrites around. Why? Because we are
> not perfect yet we preach a gospel that points toward striving to that end
> always as to do our best in our own strength and God graces us in our
> shortcomings. Because we sin ought we then sin purposefully? Paul also
> said no to that one as well. Although we preach and encourage others to
> live upright and righteous, yet we will not attain it in our own doing, we
> ought not give up. Paul also said wretched man that I am, why do I do what
> I do not want to do. Did that stop him from preaching? Did he forsake
> godly values and principles in light of, "Well I'm not perfect so forgive
> me while I do this thing"? Or did he say "Everyone else is sinning, so I
> can too"? How about him saying "Well everyone else is sinning so what kind
> of witness can I be"?  Does this seem like godly attitudes? I think not.
>
> So someone decides to eat too much, or drink caffine, what does that have
> to do with living together? Changing focus on the topic does not blur what
> would seem right according to God's Word. Caffeine a sin? I think we are
> losing focus here. We do not base our relation ship with Christ on what
> things appear, but strive towards staying away from evil appearance of
> sin, "because", of our relationship. Do we obey the Word because it is
> law? Or because we love Christ? Jesus said if you love me obey my
> commands. That is pretty simple and straight forward. I'm not certain a
> garden variety  Catholic priest nor Protestant reverend, pastor or
> whatever the title, would, in good conscious, bless an engaged couple to
> live together before marriage.  And if we are going to interject degrees
> of things, I would add there is also a difference between a male and
> female who have no original feelings for one another living together as
> oppose to two who obviously are headed for a  life of marriage and the
> gift of sex it holds. Neither one is right in my opinion, that being
> platonic  relationship living together or engaged folks living together as
> we are not to put ourselves  purposefully in the path of sin. Seems I saw
> a post of yours stating that earlier??
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> on 07:48 AM 7/21/2005, Angel said:
> I know Christian people who are gluttons as well.  Just look at all the
> fat
> people in the  church.  Do I judge them?  Gluttony is a sin according to
> St
> Paul.  The body is the temple of the holy spirit and I know Christians who
> drink soft drinks.  If a soft drink can clean the porcelain off a toilet
> bole I know I wouldn't want to drink it.  I even went to a Christian
> church
> where there was a soft drink machine in the basement of the church of all
> things.  The take drugs as well.  They are always drinking caffeine.  I
> say
> that to say this just what is a good witness.  I really don't think we can
> really say what is a good witness for Christ when there are so many
> Christian hypocrites around who do not practice what they preach. There
> are
> a lot of male female room mates who aren't either having sex together or
> contemplating marriage.  If people are basing their relationship with
> Christ
> on merely looking at how people around them live and not on their personal
> relationship with Christ they will be building their house on shifting
> sands
> and it will fall.      ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:47 AM
> Subject: Re: question, problem, and prayer request.
>
>
>  > Do we have a godly biblical example of living together before marriage?
> It
>  > is always best, prudent and wise to bring our situations back to
> scripture
>  > no matter how it might cut cross grain to us. Their may be situations
>  > today that may not have existed then, but come to think of it not all
> that
>  > many. In any event giving the appearance of evil is not only a concern
> for
>  > ourselves, in our own conern of what people may think, but also that of
>  > all Christians. What if you tried witnessing to a non-believer and they
>  > said "Don't talk to me about being high and mighty or living righteous,
> I
>  > know a christian couple who lived together before marriage, how does
> that
>  > differ from non-Christians today?". You see we bare the responsibility
> of
>  > wearing Christ-like across our chest when we are known as such, and
>  > appearing as non-believers with a live-in situation doesn't seem to
> line
>  > up biblically  or doing as the Word says, to stay away from even the
>  > appearance of sin,  not to mention surposefully put ourselves in
>  > temptations way no matter how strong we feel our faith is. Psalms 1
> says
>  >
>  > Ps 1:1-2
>  > Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or
> stand
>  > in the way of sinners
>  > or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the
> LORD,
>  > and on his law he meditates day and night.
>  >
>  > Notice the progression of "walk", "stand" and "sit" it cannotes a
> gradual
>  > decline if allowed to entertain the ideals of ideals working against
> the
>  > law or God's Word.
>  >
>  > I saw a message somewhere about if one gives in to a principle as such
>  > now, how that might affect futre decisoins and ect. I agree. What would
>  > make  a couple stronger, living together because of life's
> circumstances
>  > or arranging other means until that day when no holds are preventing a
>  > couple of living as a married one.
>  >
>  > Brad
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > on 02:47 AM 7/21/2005, Angel said:
>  > I agree with you.  It seems Christians today think the devil is bound
> to
>  > win
>  > in every situation.  I think if you do live together without falling in
> to
>  > sin it will prove to you more than anything else your love for each
> other
>  > is
>  > not based on mere physical attraction but instead is a heavenly godly
> love
>  > which will last through the years.  It will also serve as a testament
> of
>  > your commitment to god's precepts.  I will pray that you be constant in
>  > this
>  > commitment which I know you will and that your marriage will last as
> long
>  > as
>  > the firm foundation on which it will be built which is Christ.
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Jenifer Barr" <[log in to unmask]>
>  > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>  > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 9:36 PM
>  > Subject: Re: question, problem, and prayer request.
>  >
>  >
>  >  > what is a vow between god and two people?  If we have vowed before
> God
>  > and
>  >  > each other that sex will not occur until marriage, then why is
> living
>  >  > together a sin?  We are not intimate until then.  I understand about
>  >  > temptation but that's when you pray every day that God keeps you
>  > strong.
>  >  >
>  >  > Our situation is unique and it's not like we haven't prayed about
>  > it.  I
>  >  > guess I'm just hurt because everyone seems to think that just
> because
>  > we're
>  >  > going to be living together the devel is going to win.  God is the
> only
>  > one
>  >  > in control.  Is this our ideal situation?  no.  I've been through
> too
>  > much
>  >  > in the past to know what temptation can do to someone... and i... or
>  > yet
>  >  > we... will not break our vow before god.
>  >  >
>  >  > Jenifer Barr.
>  >  > When the trumpet blows... I'm outta here!
>  >  > AIM: jenibear1998
>  >  > msn
>  >  > [log in to unmask]
>  >  > ----- Original Message -----
>  >  > From: "Kathy Du Bois" <[log in to unmask]>
>  >  > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>  >  > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:06 PM
>  >  > Subject: Re: question, problem, and prayer request.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > > Hey Jen,
>  >  > >         First of all, I'm sorry that you are dealing with an
>  > inflexible
>  >  > > pastor.  I don't see what difference it makes to him whether the
>  > cerimony
>  >  > > is big or small, before or after the civil cerimony.  I suppose
> that
>  > he
>  > is
>  >  > > standing on something for theological reasons, but I have no clue
>  > what
>  >  > > that
>  >  > > would be.  It seems to me that you are left with three
>  > options:  switch
>  >  > > pastors, move the wedding up,  or leave things as they are and
> trust
>  > God
>  >  > > for a miracle.  As a child of God, the one option that you don't
>  > have,
>  > is
>  >  > > to move in together.  If you begin your marriage by  compromising
>  > your
>  >  > > principles  on something that is truly small in the grand scheme
> of
>  >  > > things,
>  >  > > how can you be trusted for the bigger ones.  Believe me, the one
>  > thing
>  >  > > that
>  >  > > I am learning about our heavenly Father is that he is extremely
>  > creative
>  >  > > in
>  >  > > the solution department.  We often miss it because we get so stuck
> in
>  >  > > thinking that the only solutions available to us are the ones that
> we
>  > can
>  >  > > see and we shut the door on His creativity.  This is a test.  This
> is
>  > only
>  >  > > a test.  The question is, will you trust Him and wait for His
>  > solution
>  > and
>  >  > > timing or will you continue to see with earthly eyes only what is
>  >  > > possible.  Good luck on your adventure.  He is faithful.  Your
> task
>  > is
>  > to
>  >  > > remain patient and at peace!  GRIN!
>  >  > > Kathy
>  >  > >
>  >  > >
>  >  > >
>  >  > > At 05:17 PM 7/18/2005, you wrote:
>  >  > >>Hi all.  As most of you know, i am getting married in november.  I
>  > found
>  >  > >>out
>  >  > >>today from work that they want me to transfer in the beginning of
>  > august.
>  >  > >>I
>  >  > >>can't tell them i won't transfer then because it is the end of our
>  > fiscal
>  >  > >>year august 31 and i could forfit my job.  Problem is though, that
> my
>  >  > >>fiancee and I decided that to save money... if i had to move in
>  > september
>  >  > >>or
>  >  > >>october we would just live together until the wedding.  We both
> don't
>  >  > >>really
>  >  > >>like the idea but it's like we have no choice.  I don't know what
> to
>  > do.
>  >  > >>I'm so confused... i don't know what is right and wrong.  Both my
>  > fiancee
>  >  > >>and I are born-again Christians, we will in no way have sex before
>  >  > >>marriage
>  >  > >>so if we made/make that pledge to god is living together before
>  > marriage
>  > a
>  >  > >>sin?  Is it wrong?  And what do i do if it is?  I know of other
>  > christian
>  >  > >>couples who have lived together before marriage.  I am just so
>  > scattered
>  >  > >>right now.  Please pray for clarity for me?  And above all, pray
> Gods
>  > will
>  >  > >>be done.
>  >  > >>I love you all.
>  >  > >>Jenifer Barr.
>  >  > >>When the trumpet blows... I'm outta here!
>  >  > >>AIM: jenibear1998
>  >  > >>msn
>  >  > >>[log in to unmask]
>  >  > >