That's good to know Harry. The other question I would ask is how 
accessible is Pages, Numbers and Keynote with VoiceOver, and how does 
that compare with the accessibility of MS Office on Windows with the 
Windows screen readers. I haven't used a Mac, so all I know is what I've 
read on various mailing lists, and it isn't clear to me how well these 
products work for a blind person. Of course, a lot of what I've read 
could be dated or from new users still learning the Mac. I'd get first 
hand knowledge from an experienced Mac user if I were you.

Good luck and let us know what you find out and what you decide. If you 
get a Mac, I'll be interested to hear how it goes for you. Like I said, 
I considered a Mac for my last laptop. Given the slower pace of laptop 
advancements these days, it may still be a while before I go laptop 
shopping again.

On 5/26/2014 9:56 AM, harry brown wrote:
> Hi Chris and all,
> Speaking of MS office, and how documents can work on a Mac, I talked 
> with Cal Carson, the leading mac expert in southeastern Michigan, 
> (he's on the internet adviser talk show, and takes calls from Mac 
> users, it's on wjr radio), he told me, that pages will work with .txt, 
> .rtf, .doc, and .docs formats, and he said numbers will work with 
> excel spread sheets.
> Pages comes installed on new Macs, in their Iworks suite.
> Harry
> On 5/24/2014 12:07 PM, Christopher J Chaltain wrote:
>> I haven't ever used a Mac, although I seriously did consider getting 
>> one a few years ago. I've used either Windows or Linux, and as Albert 
>> points out, this has been driven by my employers more than my own 
>> preference.
>>
>> I can't say I've never had lock ups on Windows, but I haven't 
>> experienced nearly as many problems as Harry has. I think Harry is 
>> pretty good about routine system maintenance, but that's the only 
>> thing I can think of that might explain my relative lack of issues 
>> with Windows and lock ups.
>>
>> I'd also suggest installing NVDA along side JAWS and setting up both 
>> NVDA and Narrator to start with some hot keys. This way you'll have 
>> some potentially different speech options to get you out of trouble 
>> when you have any issues with JAWS. This is one of the great things 
>> with Linux; if I have trouble with Orca, I can resort to Speakup or 
>> Emacspeak to get me out of trouble.
>>
>> I'm not sure I agree that OSX and Linux have always been more stable 
>> than Windows. I've used various versions of Unix and distributions of 
>> Linix, and I've seen my share of issues with the Linux kernel. This 
>> is only anecdotal, and I haven't researched any studies on which OS 
>> is more stable based on any impartial metrics. As a blind user, it's 
>> also hard to separate instabilities in the kernel from instabilities 
>> in the desktop interface and screen reader. BTW, OSX is not based on 
>> Linux. It's kernel is based on BSD and Unix.
>>
>> I think the problem with MS Office access on Apple platforms is more 
>> complicated than just Microsoft's unwillingness to write to Apple's 
>> accessibility guidelines. I'm sure Microsoft wants to add some value 
>> to it's offering on Apple and not limit it's interface look and feel, 
>> which might make it look more like Apple's office suite products. I'm 
>> sure they also want to have as much common code between the versions 
>> they offer on different platforms as possible, as well as make it as 
>> easy as possible for Office users to move from platform to platform.
>>
>> Furthermore, Microsoft and Apple are direct competitors when it comes 
>> to operating systems, office suites and more, so it isn't surprising 
>> that Apple isn't going to enhance it's screen reader or accessibility 
>> infrastructure to support competitor's products or that Microsoft 
>> will make accessibility of it's products on competitors platforms a 
>> priority, just as Apple products on Windows have their accessibility 
>> issues. I think this is one of the issues that creeps in when an 
>> operating system or application maker also gets into the screen 
>> reader business. It's great for blind people who want everything from 
>> one vendor, but it puts us on an island when we want to work in a 
>> heterogeneous environment.
>>
>> I think the issue here isn't how well you can use MS Office on the 
>> Mac but rather what are your other office options on the Mac and how 
>> accessible are they compared to MS Office? In other words, how do 
>> Pages, Numbers and Keynote compare to MS Office, in functionality, 
>> portability and accessibility?
>>
>> I hope none of this is considered flaming. I tried hard to make it 
>> balanced and be honest about my biases and experience. It's hard to 
>> weigh into these discussions since users of any system can feel 
>> challenged by any perceived criticism of the platform they've spent 
>> so much time deciding to use and then becoming proficient with it.
>>
>> On 5/24/2014 9:49 AM, Albert Ruel wrote:
>>> I use a PC because my employer does, and I purchased my own computer 
>>> in 2006.
>>>
>>> Thx, Albert
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 12:07 AM, David Chittenden 
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OSX is based on Linux. Linux is, and has always been much more 
>>>> stable than Windows.
>>>>
>>>> VoiceOver is built-in to OSX. It almost always remains on. On the 
>>>> rare occasions when it dies, pressing command f5 will toggle it off 
>>>> and on. Also, because VO is built-in, blind Mac users are able to 
>>>> install OSX from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> Don't get me wrong, OSX has access difficulties, especially with 
>>>> Office because Microsoft refuses to follow Apple's well-published 
>>>> accessibility guidelines, and Apple does not create special 
>>>> exceptions.
>>>>
>>>> It has been argued that VO is not scriptable like Jaws. This is, in 
>>>> point of fact, incorrect. VO is part of the Mac operating system. 
>>>> Therefore, it can be manipulated using Apple Scripts. However, for 
>>>> stability, Apple has set up in VO controls the ability to block 
>>>> scripts from effecting VO. This way, it is possible to protect VO 
>>>> from being negatively impacted by Apple Scripts.
>>>>
>>>> All that said, the fact is, learning VoiceOver on the Mac takes 
>>>> significant time because many of the concepts are different. The 
>>>> fact also is, it took just as much time to initially learn Windows. 
>>>> I know because I have taught blind people how to use Windows, and 
>>>> it takes weeks.
>>>>
>>>> In my case, it took two weeks, and considerable extreme 
>>>> frustration, to learn the basics.
>>>>
>>>> I purchased my MacBook Air 11" in September, 2011. I retired my 
>>>> Windows machine a week later, thereby forcing myself to learn Mac, 
>>>> and only Mac. Given Apple's commitment to accessibility, and 
>>>> Microsoft's not-so-strong commitment to accessibility, I am now 
>>>> firmly and proudly an Apple fanboy. I drunk the Apple Coolaide, and 
>>>> feel sorry for those poor, deluded blind people who still believe 
>>>> Microsoft is the best option. Let the flames commence.
>>>>
>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On 24 May 2014, at 18:29, harry brown <[log in to unmask]> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> Well folks, I'm using a Gateway windows 7 laptop, running windows 
>>>>> 7, and jaws 12.
>>>>> Well, here's the latest.
>>>>> I have read all the comments, and I was going to stay with windows.
>>>>> I did, get a new hard drive installed on the laptop, and that 
>>>>> helps, not nearly as many lockups and freeze ups.
>>>>> However, about 20 minutes ago, I was on the internet, and looking 
>>>>> up ham radios of different kinds, and reading reviews on eham.net.
>>>>> I clicked on a review for a radio, and, you guessed it, a lockup 
>>>>> and freeze up and no speech.
>>>>> So, I had to do what many windows users have to do, and that was? 
>>>>> You guessed it, a hard shut down, which is not healthy for 
>>>>> computers, but as you all know, we have to do this once in a while.
>>>>> Anyway, I did the hard shut down, and then turned the laptop back 
>>>>> on, and it took minutes to start up, and I'm finally back on.
>>>>> My question is for you Mac users. Do you have this kind of 
>>>>> problem, with lockups and freeze ups with no speech?
>>>>> This is just wasting my time, fighting with this computer.
>>>>> If Macs don't have these problems, I'm switching over.
>>>>> One Mac user here in town told me, "Harry, I don't have that many 
>>>>> lockups and freeze ups, and if it does lock up, at least I still 
>>>>> have my speech.
>>>>> So, Mac users, let me hear from you, ok?
>>>>> All I know is, after using windows for all these years, 15 years, 
>>>>> since 1998), the lockup freeze up, lose speech stuff is getting old.
>>>>> take care,
>>>>> Harry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
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>>>>
>>>>     VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
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>>>
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>>
>

-- 
--
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail


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