I never saw this post.  So if it did and I'm duplicating, please forgive.

Vicki

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vicki and The Rors" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "Echurch-USA The Electronic Church" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Right Church or should I say Family


> Keith,
>
> Thanks for all of your good thoughts here.  Much to digest.  Ah!  Good
food
> is worth digesting.
>
> I appreciate your look at the church being "family."  And that we are.
> Sometimes it's good to act like it and sometimes not, depending on the
> family example we are following.
>
> Much wrong about the church, and it's easy to become critical.  Like your
> reference to jaded.  Had no idea that was a UK book.  But much is right
with
> it, even if you look at it as an institution.  In being critical of it, we
> have to include ourselves as part of the church.  In other words, looking
to
> our own lives, each individually, and our ways before the Lord, should be
> part of our criticism.  I think that the world sometimes treats their own
> kinder than Christians treat their own.  But that's for another e-mail.
> Remembering some years when there was no question that I was living in the
> world, you could meet people with like mind about something, spend the
> evening either commiserating together with a group of friends or having a
> good time as a group of friends.  Often simple friendship and acceptance
is
> missing from many of our churches.
>
> Yes, remembering that we are all the church, Christ's body, should make a
> difference on how we respect, view and treat one another.
>
> Sometimes it, though not advocated by any of us, does take opposition and
> perhaps persecution to put growth on the fast track for the body of
Christ.
>
>
> Vicki
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Hodges" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Right Church or should I say Family
>
>
> > quotes from email by Vicky
> > > Have recently been thinking that I have some what of a jaded attitude.
> >
> > Dear Vicki,
> >
> > funny you should use the term Jaded in reference to church because there
> is
> > a book called "Jaded" that I bought here in the UK in which a number of
> > people express their feelings on the subject of how they feel about
> church.
> > You or should I say we are not alone.
> >
> > >But in a properly functioning church,
> >
> > Try saying this, "lets go to family", doesnt that simply sound wrong!
Well
> > yes it doesnt make sense. Family is closer to the true idea of what
church
> > is than a place, or a meeting. Essentially we are the church, you are
> > church, I am church and we meet together as church.
> >
> > We all know that church is the people dont we, after all we are taught
> that
> > at church. No, you see I have used the word "church" as it should never
be
> > used. There is no "at" church, we "are" church.
> >
> > This also means that there is only one church, and all who are children
of
> > God are in it all of the time. There is no time during the day when I am
> not
> > in church. The Church of Jesus Christ simply is, and we are all part of
it
> > if we are beleivers.
> >
> > The implications are pretty radical if you let them hit you...
> > think of the phrase "church attendance", it only makes sense if you use
> the
> > word church to refer to a place or a meeting. Try my old trick, let us
see
> > if using the word family in place of the word church helps us to
> understand
> > how it doesnt make sense. Ok here goes. "family attendance". See it
> > obviously does not make sense.
> >
> > What of the concept of church membership, meaning membership of a
church.
> > Again this idea is using the word "church" to refer to something, a
> building
> > or a group of people that was never conceived in the New Testament when
> the
> > word ekklesia (the greek word for church) is used.
> >
> > I will leave "church leadership", as an excercise for the reader ;-)
> >
> > I want to throw in a mention of the word "pastor". Notice that the
> Ephesians
> > 5, ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist,
> describe
> > callings. They describe how a person relates to other people, its in
their
> > character. I will use Phil as an example, I am sure that he will not
mind
> me
> > saying that he has a prophetic calling, and this is characterised by his
> > willingness to confront, or present the Lords truth to people despite
what
> > others may think or say. Phil has that blunt honesty about him, which
when
> > the Lord uses him, becomes a cutting edge. It is his character that
makes
> > him a prophet and the fact that the Lord has formed that character in
him
> > through the whole of his life so that he can relate to other people as a
> > prophet of the Lord Jesus.
> >
> > The fact is that the word "pastor" refers to someone who has a caring
> heart
> > for others. It is in their very nature. In truth it has nothing to do
with
> > leadership; I was surprised to discover that in actual fact the gift of
> > "administrations" as listed in the list of spiritual gifts is that of
> > leading and organising such as would be used in a business or government
> > (but not forgetting Jesus is the head of the church)
> >
> > So remembering that only good trees bear good fruit and bad trees do not
> > bear good fruit. We are taught to judge a tree by its fruit. If anyone
> > claiming to be a pastor does not naturally receive, hear out, respect,
> have
> > compassion for, demonstrate empathy for, any other human that they meet,
> > then they dont have the character of a pastor. Without that caring heart
> as
> > the essence of their being then then they simply are not a "pastor" as
God
> > defines it.
> >
> > Now it is not right to stop there, if you see a tree that is not bearing
> > good fruit, should it not be cut down and thrown into the fire. Ok
perhaps
> > that is a bit strong, but surely we should not be eating of the fruit of
a
> > bad tree.
> >
> > Please dont get up set with me, hear me out.... I think I am being
logical
> > and sensible.
> >
> > Step 1. A "pastor" is a person with a caring heart who serves others and
> > will go out of their way to look after sheep in a practical manner. So
> > therefore those who are called to be nurses, or carers, or relief agency
> > workers are "pastors".
> > Step 2, Therefore it follows that who call themselves pastors as part of
a
> > church organisation in which they are the CEO are not fulfilling the
role
> of
> > a biblical pastor at all really.
> > Step 3 this means that God did not appoint them to that position.
> > Step 4 I realise that that makes the whole work of a "church" that is
run
> by
> > a "pastor" since it was not Gods idea.
> > Step 5, dont partake of that fruit, teaching, covering etc, none of this
> is
> > Gods idea of a good thing.
> >
> > > should there not be a place of service for every member of the body of
> > > Christ?    And what about the verses in Hebrews 10:24-25.  New Living
> puts
> > > it this way.
> > >
> > > Think of ways to encourage one another to outbursts of love and good
> > > deeds.
> > > And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but
> > > encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his
coming
> > > back again is drawing near.
> > > I like that outburst of good deeds.
> >
> > Ah yes, this is great you have pointed out the very thing that people
> > usually misunderstand about this verse, the context. The purpose of
> meeting
> > together in this verse is not prayer, praise, learning, but it is to
"spur
> > one another on to 'outbursts of love and good deeds' ". This verse was
not
> > written for the purpose of telling people who do not go to church that
> they
> > ought to which is how it is most often used.
> >
> > So I think back to all of those church meetings I have been to. Have you

> > ever been to a service where that was really the purpose of the meeting.
I
> > myself have never been to a church service that was for the purpose of
> then
> > going out and doing something like ministering to the poor. In my
> experience
> > those sorts of meeting tend to be in smaller groups who meet to go and
do
> > something.
> >
> > > We won't have that perfect church until heaven, but the church today
is
> >
> > ah... Surely Gods true church is the one that he said he would build. "I
> > will build my church" I think he said. Those that are free in Christ are
> > able to share their gifts and minister and serve as God calls. They have
> the
> > time and the freedom to grow in relationship with Christ and live and do
> > what he is calling them to do. Those who are free and obedient to the
Lord
> > also dont really care what people think of them so they get on with it.
> >
> > The problem is when you or I as an individual, one of Gods children who
> are
> > free, choose to submit to a nominated person or leader or organisation,
> then
> > you find that your freedom is limited, the relationships are no way as
> deep
> > as they should be etc etc etc. Our freedom is also stolen from us by the
> > enemy who sows seeds in our minds of fears and doubts that limit us in
> doing
> > what the Lord would like us to do.
> >
> > > severely hampered, and misses out because members of the body aren't
in
> > > their places erving, sharing their God-given gifts, ministering and
> being
> > > ministered to..  I'm not just talking about the up front people that
we
> > > might see every Sunday like the pastor or the worship teams.  But so
> that
> > > I
> > > don't get on a soap box, wonder what others of you think?
> > >
> > > I'm sure glad that we can assemble here on the net.  The physical
> assembly
> > > is still, however, important.
> >
> > Of course it is important for us to meet together. Gods idea of us
meeting
> > together is that we grow and develop in relation ship to one another and
> to
> > him. This an active process of interacting with each other in the
context
> of
> > our daily lives. When Jesus walked the earth he went and he taught
others
> to
> > be travelling around and fellowshipping with everyone as he went in
towns
> > and villages all over the country. (i.e. not the same group week in week
> > out, that was never the intention or the model proposed)
> >
> > ah now, this is a bit of a "sacred cow" of the church and so I would
like
> to
> > present an alternative idea.... consider for a moment all of the great
men
> > and women of God over the past centuries who have had their faith
> developed
> > and cemented and their fellowship with Christ blessed through harsh
> > experiences such as prison for example. Not that I am advocating
solitary
>
> > confinement as the way forward I am just pointing out that many of the
> most
> > productive times in which God works on our characters and brings forth
> > spirutual growth and maturity tend to be those times when we are in the
> > wilderness, often times when we are on our own. Can you agree?
> >
> > If a hot coal is removed from a fire grate and is all on its own then it
> > will get cold. Have you heard this one? But it is not neccessarily true.
> If
> > the fire in the fire-place is not going very well at all, it is dying
and
> > turning to ashes, and the Lord Jesus picks up a struggling hurting coal
> from
> > the fringes, the edge of the fire. It is a whole different story if the
> Lord
> > Jesus picks that coal up and places it in the middle of a blow torch
> flame.
> >
> > thats the place to be, even if it is lonely, a little uncomfortable, and
> > hot!
> >
> > yours in Christ
> >
> > Keith
> >
>