Keith,

Thanks for all of your good thoughts here.  Much to digest.  Ah!  Good food
is worth digesting.

I appreciate your look at the church being "family."  And that we are.
Sometimes it's good to act like it and sometimes not, depending on the
family example we are following.

Much wrong about the church, and it's easy to become critical.  Like your
reference to jaded.  Had no idea that was a UK book.  But much is right with
it, even if you look at it as an institution.  In being critical of it, we
have to include ourselves as part of the church.  In other words, looking to
our own lives, each individually, and our ways before the Lord, should be
part of our criticism.  I think that the world sometimes treats their own
kinder than Christians treat their own.  But that's for another e-mail.
Remembering some years when there was no question that I was living in the
world, you could meet people with like mind about something, spend the
evening either commiserating together with a group of friends or having a
good time as a group of friends.  Often simple friendship and acceptance is
missing from many of our churches.

Yes, remembering that we are all the church, Christ's body, should make a
difference on how we respect, view and treat one another.

Sometimes it, though not advocated by any of us, does take opposition and
perhaps persecution to put growth on the fast track for the body of Christ.


Vicki


----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Hodges" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: Right Church or should I say Family


> quotes from email by Vicky
> > Have recently been thinking that I have some what of a jaded attitude.
>
> Dear Vicki,
>
> funny you should use the term Jaded in reference to church because there
is
> a book called "Jaded" that I bought here in the UK in which a number of
> people express their feelings on the subject of how they feel about
church.
> You or should I say we are not alone.
>
> >But in a properly functioning church,
>
> Try saying this, "lets go to family", doesnt that simply sound wrong! Well
> yes it doesnt make sense. Family is closer to the true idea of what church
> is than a place, or a meeting. Essentially we are the church, you are
> church, I am church and we meet together as church.
>
> We all know that church is the people dont we, after all we are taught
that
> at church. No, you see I have used the word "church" as it should never be
> used. There is no "at" church, we "are" church.
>
> This also means that there is only one church, and all who are children of
> God are in it all of the time. There is no time during the day when I am
not
> in church. The Church of Jesus Christ simply is, and we are all part of it
> if we are beleivers.
>
> The implications are pretty radical if you let them hit you...
> think of the phrase "church attendance", it only makes sense if you use
the
> word church to refer to a place or a meeting. Try my old trick, let us see
> if using the word family in place of the word church helps us to
understand
> how it doesnt make sense. Ok here goes. "family attendance". See it
> obviously does not make sense.
>
> What of the concept of church membership, meaning membership of a church.
> Again this idea is using the word "church" to refer to something, a
building
> or a group of people that was never conceived in the New Testament when
the
> word ekklesia (the greek word for church) is used.
>
> I will leave "church leadership", as an excercise for the reader ;-)
>
> I want to throw in a mention of the word "pastor". Notice that the
Ephesians
> 5, ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist,
describe
> callings. They describe how a person relates to other people, its in their
> character. I will use Phil as an example, I am sure that he will not mind
me
> saying that he has a prophetic calling, and this is characterised by his
> willingness to confront, or present the Lords truth to people despite what
> others may think or say. Phil has that blunt honesty about him, which when
> the Lord uses him, becomes a cutting edge. It is his character that makes
> him a prophet and the fact that the Lord has formed that character in him
> through the whole of his life so that he can relate to other people as a
> prophet of the Lord Jesus.
>
> The fact is that the word "pastor" refers to someone who has a caring
heart
> for others. It is in their very nature. In truth it has nothing to do with
> leadership; I was surprised to discover that in actual fact the gift of
> "administrations" as listed in the list of spiritual gifts is that of
> leading and organising such as would be used in a business or government
> (but not forgetting Jesus is the head of the church)
>
> So remembering that only good trees bear good fruit and bad trees do not
> bear good fruit. We are taught to judge a tree by its fruit. If anyone
> claiming to be a pastor does not naturally receive, hear out, respect,
have
> compassion for, demonstrate empathy for, any other human that they meet,
> then they dont have the character of a pastor. Without that caring heart
as
> the essence of their being then then they simply are not a "pastor" as God
> defines it.
>
> Now it is not right to stop there, if you see a tree that is not bearing
> good fruit, should it not be cut down and thrown into the fire. Ok perhaps
> that is a bit strong, but surely we should not be eating of the fruit of a
> bad tree.
>
> Please dont get up set with me, hear me out.... I think I am being logical
> and sensible.
>
> Step 1. A "pastor" is a person with a caring heart who serves others and
> will go out of their way to look after sheep in a practical manner. So
> therefore those who are called to be nurses, or carers, or relief agency
> workers are "pastors".
> Step 2, Therefore it follows that who call themselves pastors as part of a
> church organisation in which they are the CEO are not fulfilling the role
of
> a biblical pastor at all really.
> Step 3 this means that God did not appoint them to that position.
> Step 4 I realise that that makes the whole work of a "church" that is run
by
> a "pastor" since it was not Gods idea.
> Step 5, dont partake of that fruit, teaching, covering etc, none of this
is
> Gods idea of a good thing.
>
> > should there not be a place of service for every member of the body of
> > Christ?    And what about the verses in Hebrews 10:24-25.  New Living
puts
> > it this way.
> >
> > Think of ways to encourage one another to outbursts of love and good
> > deeds.
> > And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but
> > encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his coming
> > back again is drawing near.
> > I like that outburst of good deeds.
>
> Ah yes, this is great you have pointed out the very thing that people
> usually misunderstand about this verse, the context. The purpose of
meeting
> together in this verse is not prayer, praise, learning, but it is to "spur
> one another on to 'outbursts of love and good deeds' ". This verse was not
> written for the purpose of telling people who do not go to church that
they
> ought to which is how it is most often used.
>
> So I think back to all of those church meetings I have been to. Have you
> ever been to a service where that was really the purpose of the meeting. I
> myself have never been to a church service that was for the purpose of
then
> going out and doing something like ministering to the poor. In my
experience
> those sorts of meeting tend to be in smaller groups who meet to go and do
> something.
>
> > We won't have that perfect church until heaven, but the church today is
>
> ah... Surely Gods true church is the one that he said he would build. "I
> will build my church" I think he said. Those that are free in Christ are
> able to share their gifts and minister and serve as God calls. They have
the
> time and the freedom to grow in relationship with Christ and live and do
> what he is calling them to do. Those who are free and obedient to the Lord
> also dont really care what people think of them so they get on with it.
>
> The problem is when you or I as an individual, one of Gods children who
are
> free, choose to submit to a nominated person or leader or organisation,
then
> you find that your freedom is limited, the relationships are no way as
deep
> as they should be etc etc etc. Our freedom is also stolen from us by the
> enemy who sows seeds in our minds of fears and doubts that limit us in
doing
> what the Lord would like us to do.
>
> > severely hampered, and misses out because members of the body aren't in
> > their places erving, sharing their God-given gifts, ministering and
being
> > ministered to..  I'm not just talking about the up front people that we
> > might see every Sunday like the pastor or the worship teams.  But so
that
> > I
> > don't get on a soap box, wonder what others of you think?
> >
> > I'm sure glad that we can assemble here on the net.  The physical
assembly
> > is still, however, important.
>
> Of course it is important for us to meet together. Gods idea of us meeting
> together is that we grow and develop in relation ship to one another and
to
> him. This an active process of interacting with each other in the context
of
> our daily lives. When Jesus walked the earth he went and he taught others
to
> be travelling around and fellowshipping with everyone as he went in towns
> and villages all over the country. (i.e. not the same group week in week
> out, that was never the intention or the model proposed)
>
> ah now, this is a bit of a "sacred cow" of the church and so I would like
to
> present an alternative idea.... consider for a moment all of the great men
> and women of God over the past centuries who have had their faith
developed
> and cemented and their fellowship with Christ blessed through harsh
> experiences such as prison for example. Not that I am advocating solitary

> confinement as the way forward I am just pointing out that many of the
most
> productive times in which God works on our characters and brings forth
> spirutual growth and maturity tend to be those times when we are in the
> wilderness, often times when we are on our own. Can you agree?
>
> If a hot coal is removed from a fire grate and is all on its own then it
> will get cold. Have you heard this one? But it is not neccessarily true.
If
> the fire in the fire-place is not going very well at all, it is dying and
> turning to ashes, and the Lord Jesus picks up a struggling hurting coal
from
> the fringes, the edge of the fire. It is a whole different story if the
Lord
> Jesus picks that coal up and places it in the middle of a blow torch
flame.
>
> thats the place to be, even if it is lonely, a little uncomfortable, and
> hot!
>
> yours in Christ
>
> Keith
>