> = Peter,     >> = Sandy (I think?)

>>it's just unfortunate when that way involves the suffering and death
>>of another.  Factory farms aside, I am
>not so sure that killing another animal  involves much suffering. For one
>thing a huge rush of endorphines... (snip).

Peter, do you not think that absolute terror is suffering?  I do.  The early
roots of my vegetarianism were in a high school anthropology class.
Some tribesmen were holding a pig so that another could cut its throat.
They were not tormenting it in any way.  The eyes and squealing of that
pig while being held and then while its throat was being cut are an image
I still carry with me 25 years later.

>But if I do need some meat in my diet (I do not know yet as I have not
>tried)

Why would you try meat to see if you need it?  Are you having
symptoms of deficiency?  "Need" is such a strong word.

> and I deny myself access to it I am commiting an act of violence
>against the needs & integrity of my own body. And in the long run I
>think this kind of action of going against our own nature will be
>detrimental for the future this planet.

You may have a point here, in the sense that more medical care is
required, or that still more earth has to be dug up to plant crops, or such
like.

>>If one feels that animal products really add a  missing ingredient,
>>why not raw, organic, dairy or eggs?  At least the taking of a life is
>>not involved. I intend to do that.  I have to cater to my conditioning. :-)

While dairy and eggs are certainly preferable to meat in the killing
department, you as vegans must know that killing is involved.  Since
these are industries that exploit the reproductive outputs of females,
very few males are needed for the continuation of the operation.  Male
offspring are usually sold to be raised for meat or, in the case of male
chicks, often killed upon hatching.

>Taking the vegan high road is IMO capitulating, taking the easy way out
>& leaving all the difficult work to the likes of me. :-(

I see your point here, but I wouldn't say the vegan road is the easy way
out!  It's pretty darned hard to live a life in society as a vegan, much less
a raw vegan.  Which is why I haven't made it yet.

>I am not  exactly tickled to death by the choices I am soon to make and I
>feel  very deserted & betrayed by the vegan community, which would
>rather  wash its hands clean & turn its back to these very critical
>issues.

As a member of the almost-vegan community, "I feel your pain."  But I still
wonder why you want to first try animal products, rather than some
(gasp) cooked thing like beans or seitan.

>I  am not sure that from the perspective of the indigenous people of our
>world (not to speak of our paleolithic ancestors) a vegan diet based on
>sentimentality & emotionality would make much sense & would
>possibly  even be offensive as native people always have always held
>animal foods  in great reverence and awe and considered eating an
>animal a sacred act  and the highest honor they could pay it.

I've heard of this attitude too, but never could understand it, as the animal
would clearly prefer to be left alone.  It always struck me as
rationalization.

>In retrospect, I think that  veganism will regarded as a mostly middle
>class cult and held up as  sign of our very unenlightened times.

I think it already is, but that doesn't mean they're right.

>If veganism is to have any  future it will have to mend the gap between
>the emotion/intellect and  the instinctual part of the human nervous
>system and be based on  experience rather than idea. If vegans are
>not willing to put their  ideas to the test and try eating a truly health &
>longevity promoting  diet that includes some meat they will have to stop
>claiming the vegan  diet is the healthiest for anybody including
>themselves and admit they  simply do not know.

Yes, I admit I simply do not know.
Peter, earlier you wrote that veganism might be harmful to the planet in
the long run.  Here, you're holding up longevity as an ideal.  To me it
seems that human longevity itself is bad for the planet, especially if we
still plan to reproduce.

>Like you I am concerned about the consequences of meat consumption
>on  the sustainability of life on the planet.  We need to find out how
>little we can get by with and still maintain our health.

Here, here!  And kudos in advance from Martha to anybody for whom the
answer is zero.

>Also, there  are some issues like overpopulation that deserve the same
>or even more  attention.

Amen to that!!!!!!!!!  In fact until we get our numbers down by quite a bit,
there's no way we can get rid of farming.

> Best, Peter [log in to unmask]

Cheers,
Martha