Stefan:

> Both jobs aren't very different for me. One can be heavy work inside
> a closed building, the other outside. On the other hand: you would get
> a lot of training with that garbage-bin job. Bet you would become
> very athletic in some months (or give up). Sounds like a very paleo-
> lithic job. Not my preference but for others who like to work out?

I don't think it is very Paleolithic to wake up during the (end of the)
night, to smell the odors of the waste and of car exhausts. And I could
have found worse examples (workers risking permanent disabilities in
factories, working at night with 3 rotating teams, persons damaging
their sense of hearing, their lower back...)

There are definitely jobs which are damaging for your health and
that I wouldn't do for more than 1 month.

> That's why I chose the example with the Ferrari. This would give me the
> financial stop.

But health is fundamental, whereas Ferraries are not.

> My point is, that you are   f r e e   to improve your financial situa-
> tion. That's the item to attack here.

You are free to TRY. But it can be proven scientifically that people
coming from the lowest class are at disadvantage (at school, etc). I mean
that, since they didn't have the benefit of being in contact with
highly-educated parents, they have a lower IQ, etc. Not to mention
emotional and financial aspects.

Moreover, want it or not, there will always be people at the base of the
pyramid (even if you are "free" to climb to the top). I believe that
the humankind would be happier if society made its best to help the base.

I don't think that 100% "free market" is the best solution, nor that
"free market" implies "more personal freedom". For me, having the minimum
(i.e. health, i.e. raw food)+freedom of speech+a few other things is
enough freedom. You can be extremely wealthy, and yet not be intellectually
free, be the victim of social conventions, of the media, of religions/sects/
fanatism, whatever. Being free is something personal, and doesn't identify
with external signs such as Ferraries; indeed, if you NEED a Ferrari, it
means that you want to show-off, that you are dependent of other persons'
admiration.

Freedom, for me, means not being dependent on desires, on personal ego,
having the opportunity to develop intellectually and spiritually. But
you will always be dependent on your body's needs, and I think that
some (physical) needs are fundamental.

I would gladly sacrify a part of my salary if I earned more than the
"minimum" I set, if that helped increase the general level.

Bob:

>"Society" is only a word, much like "government"

You can discuss for a long time on that. I also have somewhere in my file
megabytes of discussions about the existence of "races".

>2--Only one economic system provides the conditions for "as many people as
>possible have access to decent conditions".  Laissez Faire Capitalism,
>free-market economy.

I definitely believe the contrary.

> Possibilities always exist.  One can devise means to earn more money.  One
>can move to where these "necessary exotic fruits" will grow.  One (THIS one,
>anyway) can be quite satisfied without "exotic fruits".

These "necessary exotic fruits" grow in third world countries. Your
statement seems funny, because most people from those countries strive,
without success, to emigrate to industrialized ones.

And I would like the majority of instinctive eaters to be satisfied
without exotic fruits, but it is definitely not the case. I have seen
many times the argument that, although shipping exotic fruits by plane
is not ecological it is "necessary" because instinctive eaters "need"
exotic fruits to be satisfied.

>Seems there are two types of people, those who look to "authority", "law" for
>their decisions , "what's legal" & those who look for "what's right".

Society has to do its best, so that "legal" and "right" match as closely
as possible. But, as not everyone agrees on the meaning of "right", one
has to abide the majority (IMveryHO only !!)


Final remark: that is definitely my last post on the subject (I don't want
our forum to be more "polluted" than our oceans!) If someone ever wished
to continue the discussion, I would be glad to do it by private e-mail,
but I will leave the last word to anyone willing to add comments on the list.


Best wishes,

Jean-Louis