I couldn't have said it better Ginny. May the Lord God be with you. ALways.
Haruna.
In a message dated 4/17/2009 3:08:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
The facts as I see them are that Halifa went on a fact-finding
mission, regarding the "witch-hunting exercise), was arrested and had
charges brought against him. Suntou is of the opinion that Halifa
Sallah was doing this for his own political gain/fortune, and that if
he'd known that he was going to get arrested, that he'd not have
engaged in said fact-finding mission,and if Suntou is making these
assertions, A. are they correct? and B. if they are, is this
necessarily a bad thing?
When the insinuation was made that Halifa Sallah was acting in his own
political interest, instead of that of the Gambian people, we once
again waded in to the "Sallah would never do that" argument... The
issue seems to me that it's not whether or not Sallah acted in his own
interest or not, but the fact that many can't fathom that Sallah could
possibly be looking out for himself, politically, and trying to raise
his political fortunes, by going on a "fact-finding" mission regarding
the witch hunt. I mean, if he's seeking to be President or
Representative, or a political leader of some sort, he'd have to raise
his political fortunes somehow, he'd have to find some way to get
elected, so how does he do this?
Politicians make well, political calculations all the time. whenever
there's a disaster, they go and tour the area, whenever there's a
problem or issue, they have some sort of theory of how to fix it,
they're not necessarily doing it out of the kindness of their own
heart. Why should Halifa Sallah be any different? Is it possible
that acting in the best interest of The Gambia is a political gesture
in and of itself.
And even if Suntou is wrong, which I think he is in this case, he has
the right to offer his opinion, and to offer reasons for why he holds
that opinion. And everyone else who disagrees has the right to
challenge him on it. Perhaps it's not happened in this particular
conversation (though I do see it to some degree, just on the emotional
outbursts of some alone), that saying anything deemed as "wrong" or
"bad" about Halifa Sallah is deemed as a sort of treason or a
sacrilege. If Sallah doesn't want a position of leadership and
authority/power, why is he in politics in the first place? If he
wants to speak out against The Gambia government, he could well do
that on his own. If he wants representation in Parliament, etc., then
he could just sponsor a candidate or campaign on a candidates behalf,
but then we're back to the same place we started, that Sallah is
involved in politics, even if it may be indirectly.
My point is that Halifa is held up as the selfless, courageous fighter
of The Gambian people, I've even heard/read some refer to him as the
"Mandela of The Gambia", and that he doesn't seek power for power's
sake, etc. And this may all be true. However, this doesn't preclude
the notion that he may, in his quest to fight for the Gambian people,
make some political decisions/calculations at some point in time.
At any rate, this was a futile argument to begin with and I'm
wondering why Suntou even brought it up? What good is this going to
do? What good is it going to do in united an opposition for the next
election? (Is that even on the table anymore?) And why are we
bringing up Darboe's 1996 Incident? Again, I'm not saying that I
agree or disagree with it, but why now? What is to be gained by
talking about these two things incessantly? Even if Darboe was wrong
for running off to the Senegalese embassy, and even if Sallah was
somehow "politically calculating"? What is the point of bringing this
up, except to engender more animosity and bitterness between people
that really need to find a way to unite?
And if you can't unite with or get behind Sallah, or you can't unite
with or get behind Darboe, based on their political beliefs or their
past mistakes, if you don't like the current leaders in The Gambia,
what then? It seems to me that we've got a certain segment of people
(and not necessarily all PDOIS supporters or all UDP supporters for
that matter), who will not compromise on anything, who will not
entertain any other position or idea other than the one they currently
support.
Perhaps I've missed the boat big time but I'm sure there'll be another
one along shortly and maybe next time I'll get it.
Although I'd imagine that if I completely agreed with the pro-Halifa
people in this particular discussion, I'd miraculously develop a keen
intelligence, a knack for understanding "Gambian issues", I'd all of a
sudden go from being someone who's "missed the boat big time", and
would morph into a certified genius. See how those things work?
Again, you see it in this country too, if you listen to talk radio, or
at least Conservative talk radio, you'll hear the hosts talk about how
if you don't agree with them, then there's something patently wrong
with you, they talk about their views being "the truth". And to be
fair, you also see it among Liberals too. And I don't think that
Gambian political discussions are any different, at least when we're
talking about the opposition. "The truth" to my mind is relative to
the person you're talking to. One person's "cowardice" is another
person's "courage". One person's "selflessness" is another person's
"political calculation". It just depends on who you're talking to.
We're just not agreeing and no amount of back and forth is going to
change that.
Ginny
On 4/17/09, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The ramble is extremely valuable, appropriate, and visionary. And I read
> every word of it.
>
> Ginny I'll give you a hint:
> Your fair review of all political parties and their leaders of Gambia IS
> NOT WHAT BRINGS OUT THE DAGGERS. I just want you to know that.
>
> Some time just after the nadd dissolution and UDP/NRP's withdrawal from
the
> gaucherie, The GDP had invited UDP and NRP officials in order to
fashion a
> reconvening of minds around some coalescing of forces. You were kind
> enough to grace a meeting of Hon. Hamat Bah. You spoke gloriously of him
> and he
> spoke admirably of you both here and in Gambia. On your blog, there is
> publication dedicated to Hamat, the Man.
>
> So in life's mirages, and being an enhanced human being, you will not
> understand why you solicit venom from some corners, even as you give
praise
> to
> their dear leader. The mentality and level of development is such that
not
> only is disagreement a harbinger of derision and contemptuous libel,
but so
> is the commendation and "praise" of phantom enemies.
>
> I hope this keeps things in better perspective for you. I am concerned
that
> you will blame yourself for your good self. And it has nothing
(virtually
> nothing) to do with Ginny. What it risks doing is intimidating you to a
> point where you recede in human terms to meet your detractors at the
lower
> ebb
> of life. I advise you stay true north. And enjoy life with your
trademark
> considerations.
> Haruna.
>
>
> In a message dated 4/16/2009 10:21:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> I wasn't necessarily saying that anyone said, word for word, that
> Halifa Sallah wasn't human. And wasn't prone to mistakes. I merely
> pointed that fact out, as an aside, because every time Halifa Sallah
> is discussed, and/or criticized in anyway, the claws come out. And I
> mean every time! I almost guarantee you that if you scream Halifa
> Sallah on a crowded list, it's bound to evoke some kinda response.
> And I also think that some of his supporters idolize him, put him on a
> pedestal, darn near worship him, and anyone can disagree with me on
> this point if you want, however, from what I've seen, anyone who
> criticizes him (rightly or wrongly), gets all kinds of stuff flung at
> them, and we get the same old tired lecture of how great he is for The
> Gambia, and how much he's done for the Gambian people. Which may or
> may not be true, that's not even the point I'm addressing. However,
> the unspoken rule seems to be that criticism of Halifa Sallah is off
> limits. Now this may, or may not, be true. Maybe he has, or can't do
> anything wrong. Maybe the criticism has taken place off list. I
> don't know.
>
> I'll say (once again as this seems to be getting lost in the shuffle),
> that I commend Halifa Sallah for speaking out and doing what he could
> to get at the truth of what actually took place. And I think that
> questioning his motives, just for the sake of questioning them,
> without any proof to substantiate any of the claims made in
> questioning his motives, is wrong and is over the top. OK? Now, if
> anyone has any substantiated claims that Sallah was acting in his own
> self-interest, or for his own political gains, let's post hard facts
> here, and not just mere speculation and inuendo. Let's not disagree
> with Halifa Sallah just for the sake of disagreeing with him.
>
> I have wondered, though, why Halifa Sallah and the PDOIS party has
> failed to gain traction with the Gambian people. And when I've asked
> this question, the inference I get is that the Gambian people, by and
> large, are not politically mature enough, not educated enough, and are
> too tribalistic in their mindset, to choose what's best for them (read
> Sallah). Now, if one thinks so low of the people they supposedly are
> trying to fight for, the people you supposedly want to have freedom,
> democracy, the rule of law, etc., doesn't that mean that they should
> be allowed to support the candidate of their choosing? Even if it's
> not Sallah? Is Sallah (and the other opposition politicians as well)
> fighting for the Gambian people, or are they fighting for their own
> political gains? And if Sallah is so different than the other
> opposition politicians, how so? What has he done that say, Darboe (a
> human rights lawyer mind you) hasn't?
>
> Sallah might be the best thing for The Gambia (I'll steer away from
> the "sliced bread" comparison as it might offend some), however, the
> hard fact is that the majority of Gambians do *not* support him! Now,
> how can you get support from people when you infer (or right out say)
> that the constituency that you're asking to vote for you is too stupid
> and uneducated to do so? Now Sallah may not have said this himself,
> but I've heard/seen it from his supporters enough... And I'd
> personally not support someone who insults my intelligence or thinks
> me stupid.
>
> It seems that all of the opposition leaders' supporters aren't that
> much different than Jammeh's supporters. You criticize their leaders,
> the claws will come out, you'll get called all kinds of names, and be
> asked to prove (with supporting messages, footnotes, and
> documentation) every letter, word, sentence, that you utter. And in
> the process of the back-and-forth, we lose sight of what the actual
> goal is. Perhaps if we remember what the ultimate goal is, which is
> to restore democracy and the rule of law to The Gambia (or at least
> that's what I thought it was), then we can put our differences aside
> to achieve that goal and then worry about the back and forth bickering
> later. However, it seems that you have a group of people who would
> rather have Jammeh in power, than to see anyone else butHalifa Sallah
> as the next President of The Gambia.
>
> All of the opposition leaders, imho, have done something, in their own
> way, to challenge the current regime in power. They'd not be
> opposition leaders if they had not done something... Maybe it wasn't
> exactly what Sallah was or is doing, but if it's not, does it mean
> that how they choose to stand up to the dictatorship is necessarily
> "wrong", or that because they're not acting as PDOIS/Sallah woudl act,
> that that makes them power hungry, selfish, etc.?
>
> And this is why we can't unite! Because some do not have respect for
> the parties they don't agree with, they've put Sallah way up here, and
> the rest of the opposition leaders way down here. And will come on
> the list and say they want a united opposition no matter what, while
> trashing some of the opposition candidates.
>
> I'm going to use American politics as an example again (and my
> apologies as this seems to offend some too), but do you think Obama
> would have gotten elected if he trashed Hillary and her supporters
> after he'd won the primary? Or, vice versa, i.e., what if Hillary
> and/or her supporters had continued trashing Obama after he'd won, and
> the democratic party had remained divided? What I'm trying to say is
> that for the most part, even Democrats and Independents, for that
> matter, rallied around Obama even if they didn't necessarily agree
> with him, in order to get rid of Bush and not allow McCain to get
> elected. They were able to put their smaller differences aside and
> focus on the bigger goal of ousting the Republicans from the White
> House as well as from many seats in Congress.
>
> Now, if people can't even do that here on this list, when we're
> supposedly dealing with mature and educated people, how do we expect
> the leaders to be able to do it? And even if the leaders were able to
> come together, what about their supporters?
>
> You've got one person rehashing an event that happened in 1996, per
> Darboe, and another person questioning the supposed ulterior motives
> of a guy who, for whatever reason, put his life on the line for asking
> questions... i.e. Sallah... And this is just a waste of time and
> we're losing site of the big picture here!
>
> My nuanced view, that many either missed or chose to only focus on the
> critical of Sallah parts, is that Sallah stood up and spoke out
> *more*, hear me? I said *more than* any of the other leaders that we
> knew of! I was commending him for this. However, based not only on
> this current conversation but past exchanges regarding Sallah,
> criticism of him is not tolerated, even if it may be warranted! I
> also said that Sallah has done a lot in educating the people in
> electoral matters (and that was missed too), however, the fact still
> remains that PDOIS is still a small party in The Gambia. And the fact
> also is that many say that he and PDOIS urged people to support an
> admittedly flawed Constitution, the reason being that a flawed
> Constitution coudl be changed later and it was better than no
> Constitution at all. However, that's pretty much water under the
> bridge (just as Darboe's seeking refuge with the Senegalese embassy
> should also be water under the bridge), because even if we would have
> had a perfect Constitution, Jammeh has all but ruined it, and if the
> Freedom Newspaper *shudder* is accurate, Jammeh's fixing to *oops,
> there's the Tennessee coming out* put up a bill making The Gambia a
> one-party state. What will the opposition do then? Where will the
> endless quoting of the Constitution get anyone then?
>
> You see, many times I tend to have a pretty nuanced opinion about
> things. And many I think, missed that.
>
> Anyway... this old argument regarding Sallah/the opposition, in
> general, is an old and tired one, and I'm sorry that I wasted my time,
> and others' time, getting involved in it.
>
> Although the emotional quips of "going back to Clarksville and telling
> the hibbies" along with my supposedly thinking my opinions superior to
> others (but they were didn't ya know? 'cause I'm educated and all
> that) have kept me laughing all day... And such an emotional reaction
> from presumably PDOIS/Sallah supporters have proven my point, that any
> kind of disagreement, or even mere suggestion that perhaps something
> else different should be tried, can't be tolerated, unless of course,
> the great and wonderful Sallah says it should be so... And Maybe
> Sallah is a great and wonderful leader, and I'm just not seeing it.
>
> I've just not been the type to put people on pedestals. Even Obama,
> who I think, for the most part, is doing good for this country, I
> don't always agree with.
>
> Anyway, I've rambled on long enough...
>
> Ginny
>
>
>
> On 4/16/09, Jabou Joh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Ginny,
>>
>> Where in the responses of those who are challenging the misinformation
> about
>> Halifa's intentions or anything else that is said about him for that
> matter,
>> have you read where any of us have even suggested that Halifa is not
> human
>> and does not make mistakes?
>> Jabou Joh
>>
>> But last I checked, he was human just like the rest of us, he's not
> perfect,
>> and just like the other opposition leaders (who by being opposition
> leaders
>> and human rights lawyers, etc., have also put their lives on the line
for
>> The Gambia), have also made mistakes.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:01 am
>> Subject: Re: The Halifa Factor, what next?
>>
>>
>>
>> You know, I could care less *why* Halifa did what he did! If others
> want to
>> question his motives than go right ahead... However, the fact of the
> matter
>> remains that he went on a fact-finding mission regarding the
> "witch-hunts",
>> was arrested for it, and had charges brought against him! Where were
the
>> other politicians while all of this was going on? He was the most
> outspoken
>> out of all of the opposition politicians.
>>
>>
>>
>> Having said that, though, just like the Republicans and Democrats in
this
>> country can't do anything right in the other's eyes, so goes with the
>> various opposition parties (and their supporters) in The Gambia. If it
> had
>> been Ousainou Darbo or someone else, then someone would probably be
> coming
>> along and questioning Ousainou's motives
>> too.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't think that anyone in PDOIS is any more or less prone to hero
> worship
>> than a supporter from any other party, but I've always detected a hint
> of, I
>> can't find the right word for it, but a hint of defensiveness and and a
>> sorta cult-like hero-worship where Halifa is concerned, though this
>> definitely doesn't hold true for every PDOIS supporter. And Halifa is
>> human, prone to error, just like anyone else, though if you listen to
> some
>> people talk, he's the best thing since sliced bread, and if you don't
>> support him, then there's something wrong with you, you're stupid,
>> uneducated, or any number of invectives.
>>
>>
>>
>> Notwithstanding all of this, at least in the most recent case of
>> witch-hunting, no matter why Halifa did what he did, he did it! And
if
>> anyone wants to question Halifa's motives for doing so, I'd like a
little
>> more than speculation, i.e., direct quotes, hard evidence, etc., for
>> example, to sit there and say "if Halifa knew he'd be arrested, he'd
not
>> have done what he did". Which doesn't make sense to me because if
memory
>> serves me, Halifa has been detained before, so surely he knew that his
>> actions could well land him in detention of some sort.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I've only read through some of the posts as the back-and-forth
> was
>> giving me a headache. And it's just the same old "Halifa is
> selfish/thinks
>> we're stupid/whatever" meme against Halifa, and the "Halifa is great
and
>> wonderful and how dare you question him/we all k
>> now what you're trying to do/you're trying to tarnish the image of the
> most
>> courageous Gambian to ever walk the face of the earth/what you're
saying
>> about Halifa is patently untrue", on the other side.
>>
>>
>>
>> And from my vantage point, the true is probably somewhere in the middle
> of
>> those two extremes. Halifa hs done much to educate Gambians, has done
> much
>> to empower them electorally, and he has put his life on the line to
> stand up
>> for Gambians. But last I checked, he was human just like the rest of
us,
>> he's not perfect, and just like the other opposition leaders (who by
> being
>> opposition leaders and human rights lawyers, etc., have also put their
> lives
>> on the line for The Gambia), have also made mistakes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ginny
>>
>>
>>
>>
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