OK, I got it here Laye. You're right the question must have been lost in
the shuffle. Thanks for burying it again here. What is wrong with yew?
So if I get it right, your query, or really challenge is: [I asked Haruna
to reconcile his stance on Ousainou's 1996 decision to that of his
insinuation that Halifa's move against the witch hunting debacle was political
grandstanding; we lost that answer somewhere in the traffic jam.] Laye.
I'm not sure I understand the query. These are my shortcomings:
1. What is my stance on Ousainou's 1996 decision (I suppose you refer to
Ousainou's decision) to seek refuge in his neighbour, the Senegalese
Embassy). In response to Dramane's witch-hunting, I proposed that Ousainou's
decision was private and based on advice from his party associates who were
concerned about his welfare. And that votes were already cast, and were being
counted. This tells me that he ought not be out and about anyway for
democracy's sakes. However and FYI, I cannot have a position on the personal
decision of other regarding their welfare. That will have been presumptuous of
me. I share here my verbatim response to Dramane:
[It seems to me Mr. Drammeh that this question is best asked of Ousainou.
And the value of the answer to be assessed by you. It seems a personal
matter involving personal calculus. UDP partisans are encouraged to make their
judgement of their leader too. I am informed of the ambiance of the event
and It happens to be of no significance or consequence to the good of
Gambia. I am sure Ousainou acted on information and counsel of his party members
and others in the know of his welfare. The votes were being counted after
the votes were cast. It is the threat on his person that ought to yield
query. Also, It may be wise to address the Hon. Ousainou as Ousainou or Mr.
Darboe in your fact-finding mission.
Haruna.]
2. I did NOT INSINUATE that Halifa's "Fact-finding" expedition was
political grandstanding. If I ever mentioned grandstanding it was in reference to
Evian, Olfactor, Jabou, Dramane, Laye, et al's posturings and attempted
intimidation of Suntou. What I did say about Halifa's demarche was that it was
both a calculated attempt to yield PDOIS attenuated fortunes and a concern
for the human rights of his fellow citizens of Sintet and Makumbaya. A
confluence of ideas, which but for Suntou's atrophied expedition, risks being
one big haze of listless mirages.
In my opinion, and when Halifa himself was arrested for his expeditions
(whether you agree with the process or politic of it), Halifa's human right
now trumps any calculus. Now after Halifa's release, and the subsequent
withdrawal of the cockamayme charges by an uncouth and clueless prosecutor, IT
IS PARAMOUNT TO FOCUS ON THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF THE FOLK OF SINTET, MAKUMBAYA,
and the other 2/3 villages and communities where WITCH-HUNTING WAS BEING
CARRIED OUT.
WHAT DOES this mean Laye? It means that instead of pouncing on Suntou for
nought, and now that Halifa has been released and all erroneous charges
have been dropped, the NEXT STEP, is perhaps to seek redress for the victims
(All of Them) of the witch-hunting saga AND Halifa's wrongful arrest,
detention, and attendant abrogation of rights of his family and friends to see
him while in detention. DO YOU BY CHANCE GET THIS?? Why does Suntou's query
of Halifa's motives TRUMP the immediate above in
significance?????????????????
Would that not BETRAY THE MOTIVES OF HALIFA's REMOTE-CONTROL IF NOT HALIFA
HIMSELF??????? Would it were not for your gesticulations, and muscling of
Suntou into submission and the casual abrogation of his right to free
speech and expression, The SELFLESSNESS part of HALIFA's EXPEDITION could have
overwhelmed any interest-peddling he may have been engaged in. AND, the
fruits of his loves' labours could have been on their merry ways to ripening.
IN OTHER WORDS, LIFE IN GAMBIA, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, DOES NOT STOP
WHEN HALIFA's MOTIVES ARE QUESTIONED. DO YOU GET IT NOW??????? GOOD. THAT
IS INSIGNIFICANT AND MINISCULE COMPARED TO THE COOMONER RELIEF THE
FACT-FINDING ITSELF COULD YIELD. WHETHER OR NOT THE FACT-FINDING WAS SINCERE,
HONEST, POLITICAL, or short on PROPRIETY. SO STOP THE IDIOCY AND RECONNOITRE FOR
VALUE-LIFE.
Haruna.
In a message dated 4/17/2009 12:06:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Here's the skinny Ginny (add that to your comic collection). You,
Suntu and Haruna have one thing in common, as I observed. You say
everything under the earth, moon and sun, yet we get nothing absolutely!
Buharry asked Suntu a series of simple questions, he went to Jupiter
and came back down to where he started o earth without answering the
questions. At least, Suntu eventually admitted, after the hundreth
exchange, that be was skinning a goat and there are many ways to do
that; only if he had said that earlier!
I asked Haruna to reconcile his stance on Ousainou's 1996 decision to
that of his insinuation that Halifa's move against the witch hunting
debacle was political grandstanding; we lost that answer somewhere in
the traffic jam.
And you, you're a stretch above the rest Ginny. Where is the answer to
Sis Jabou's question? The billies got it? Honestly I felt dizzy by the
time I read your last sentence and I still don't remember you remotely
answering her simple question. What irks meosr is that you keep adding
to heap of crap that generalized Gambians to be so mentally inferior
that any one would hold Halifa to be infallible. Take that crap back I
say one more time.
What I was expecting was for y'all (there goes another bluff) to be
straight shooters and cut to the chase, but I see that's asking for
too much from Suntu, Haruna and Ginny.
-Abdoulie
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 17, 2009, at 6:21, Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I wasn't necessarily saying that anyone said, word for word, that
> Halifa Sallah wasn't human. And wasn't prone to mistakes. I merely
> pointed that fact out, as an aside, because every time Halifa Sallah
> is discussed, and/or criticized in anyway, the claws come out. And I
> mean every time! I almost guarantee you that if you scream Halifa
> Sallah on a crowded list, it's bound to evoke some kinda response.
> And I also think that some of his supporters idolize him, put him on a
> pedestal, darn near worship him, and anyone can disagree with me on
> this point if you want, however, from what I've seen, anyone who
> criticizes him (rightly or wrongly), gets all kinds of stuff flung at
> them, and we get the same old tired lecture of how great he is for The
> Gambia, and how much he's done for the Gambian people. Which may or
> may not be true, that's not even the point I'm addressing. However,
> the unspoken rule seems to be that criticism of Halifa Sallah is off
> limits. Now this may, or may not, be true. Maybe he has, or can't do
> anything wrong. Maybe the criticism has taken place off list. I
> don't know.
>
> I'll say (once again as this seems to be getting lost in the shuffle),
> that I commend Halifa Sallah for speaking out and doing what he could
> to get at the truth of what actually took place. And I think that
> questioning his motives, just for the sake of questioning them,
> without any proof to substantiate any of the claims made in
> questioning his motives, is wrong and is over the top. OK? Now, if
> anyone has any substantiated claims that Sallah was acting in his own
> self-interest, or for his own political gains, let's post hard facts
> here, and not just mere speculation and inuendo. Let's not disagree
> with Halifa Sallah just for the sake of disagreeing with him.
>
> I have wondered, though, why Halifa Sallah and the PDOIS party has
> failed to gain traction with the Gambian people. And when I've asked
> this question, the inference I get is that the Gambian people, by and
> large, are not politically mature enough, not educated enough, and are
> too tribalistic in their mindset, to choose what's best for them (read
> Sallah). Now, if one thinks so low of the people they supposedly are
> trying to fight for, the people you supposedly want to have freedom,
> democracy, the rule of law, etc., doesn't that mean that they should
> be allowed to support the candidate of their choosing? Even if it's
> not Sallah? Is Sallah (and the other opposition politicians as well)
> fighting for the Gambian people, or are they fighting for their own
> political gains? And if Sallah is so different than the other
> opposition politicians, how so? What has he done that say, Darboe (a
> human rights lawyer mind you) hasn't?
>
> Sallah might be the best thing for The Gambia (I'll steer away from
> the "sliced bread" comparison as it might offend some), however, the
> hard fact is that the majority of Gambians do *not* support him! Now,
> how can you get support from people when you infer (or right out say)
> that the constituency that you're asking to vote for you is too stupid
> and uneducated to do so? Now Sallah may not have said this himself,
> but I've heard/seen it from his supporters enough... And I'd
> personally not support someone who insults my intelligence or thinks
> me stupid.
>
> It seems that all of the opposition leaders' supporters aren't that
> much different than Jammeh's supporters. You criticize their leaders,
> the claws will come out, you'll get called all kinds of names, and be
> asked to prove (with supporting messages, footnotes, and
> documentation) every letter, word, sentence, that you utter. And in
> the process of the back-and-forth, we lose sight of what the actual
> goal is. Perhaps if we remember what the ultimate goal is, which is
> to restore democracy and the rule of law to The Gambia (or at least
> that's what I thought it was), then we can put our differences aside
> to achieve that goal and then worry about the back and forth bickering
> later. However, it seems that you have a group of people who would
> rather have Jammeh in power, than to see anyone else butHalifa Sallah
> as the next President of The Gambia.
>
> All of the opposition leaders, imho, have done something, in their own
> way, to challenge the current regime in power. They'd not be
> opposition leaders if they had not done something... Maybe it wasn't
> exactly what Sallah was or is doing, but if it's not, does it mean
> that how they choose to stand up to the dictatorship is necessarily
> "wrong", or that because they're not acting as PDOIS/Sallah woudl act,
> that that makes them power hungry, selfish, etc.?
>
> And this is why we can't unite! Because some do not have respect for
> the parties they don't agree with, they've put Sallah way up here, and
> the rest of the opposition leaders way down here. And will come on
> the list and say they want a united opposition no matter what, while
> trashing some of the opposition candidates.
>
> I'm going to use American politics as an example again (and my
> apologies as this seems to offend some too), but do you think Obama
> would have gotten elected if he trashed Hillary and her supporters
> after he'd won the primary? Or, vice versa, i.e., what if Hillary
> and/or her supporters had continued trashing Obama after he'd won, and
> the democratic party had remained divided? What I'm trying to say is
> that for the most part, even Democrats and Independents, for that
> matter, rallied around Obama even if they didn't necessarily agree
> with him, in order to get rid of Bush and not allow McCain to get
> elected. They were able to put their smaller differences aside and
> focus on the bigger goal of ousting the Republicans from the White
> House as well as from many seats in Congress.
>
> Now, if people can't even do that here on this list, when we're
> supposedly dealing with mature and educated people, how do we expect
> the leaders to be able to do it? And even if the leaders were able to
> come together, what about their supporters?
>
> You've got one person rehashing an event that happened in 1996, per
> Darboe, and another person questioning the supposed ulterior motives
> of a guy who, for whatever reason, put his life on the line for asking
> questions... i.e. Sallah... And this is just a waste of time and
> we're losing site of the big picture here!
>
> My nuanced view, that many either missed or chose to only focus on the
> critical of Sallah parts, is that Sallah stood up and spoke out
> *more*, hear me? I said *more than* any of the other leaders that we
> knew of! I was commending him for this. However, based not only on
> this current conversation but past exchanges regarding Sallah,
> criticism of him is not tolerated, even if it may be warranted! I
> also said that Sallah has done a lot in educating the people in
> electoral matters (and that was missed too), however, the fact still
> remains that PDOIS is still a small party in The Gambia. And the fact
> also is that many say that he and PDOIS urged people to support an
> admittedly flawed Constitution, the reason being that a flawed
> Constitution coudl be changed later and it was better than no
> Constitution at all. However, that's pretty much water under the
> bridge (just as Darboe's seeking refuge with the Senegalese embassy
> should also be water under the bridge), because even if we would have
> had a perfect Constitution, Jammeh has all but ruined it, and if the
> Freedom Newspaper *shudder* is accurate, Jammeh's fixing to *oops,
> there's the Tennessee coming out* put up a bill making The Gambia a
> one-party state. What will the opposition do then? Where will the
> endless quoting of the Constitution get anyone then?
>
> You see, many times I tend to have a pretty nuanced opinion about
> things. And many I think, missed that.
>
> Anyway... this old argument regarding Sallah/the opposition, in
> general, is an old and tired one, and I'm sorry that I wasted my time,
> and others' time, getting involved in it.
>
> Although the emotional quips of "going back to Clarksville and telling
> the hibbies" along with my supposedly thinking my opinions superior to
> others (but they were didn't ya know? 'cause I'm educated and all
> that) have kept me laughing all day... And such an emotional reaction
> from presumably PDOIS/Sallah supporters have proven my point, that any
> kind of disagreement, or even mere suggestion that perhaps something
> else different should be tried, can't be tolerated, unless of course,
> the great and wonderful Sallah says it should be so... And Maybe
> Sallah is a great and wonderful leader, and I'm just not seeing it.
>
> I've just not been the type to put people on pedestals. Even Obama,
> who I think, for the most part, is doing good for this country, I
> don't always agree with.
>
> Anyway, I've rambled on long enough...
>
> Ginny
>
>
>
> On 4/16/09, Jabou Joh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Ginny,
>>
>> Where in the responses of those who are challenging the
>> misinformation about
>> Halifa's intentions or anything else that is said about him for
>> that matter,
>> have you read where any of us have even suggested that Halifa is
>> not human
>> and does not make mistakes?
>> Jabou Joh
>>
>> But last I checked, he was human just like the rest of us, he's not
>> perfect,
>> and just like the other opposition leaders (who by being opposition
>> leaders
>> and human rights lawyers, etc., have also put their lives on the
>> line for
>> The Gambia), have also made mistakes.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ginny Quick <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:01 am
>> Subject: Re: The Halifa Factor, what next?
>>
>>
>>
>> You know, I could care less *why* Halifa did what he did! If
>> others want to
>> question his motives than go right ahead... However, the fact of
>> the matter
>> remains that he went on a fact-finding mission regarding the "witch-
>> hunts",
>> was arrested for it, and had charges brought against him! Where
>> were the
>> other politicians while all of this was going on? He was the most
>> outspoken
>> out of all of the opposition politicians.
>>
>>
>>
>> Having said that, though, just like the Republicans and Democrats
>> in this
>> country can't do anything right in the other's eyes, so goes with the
>> various opposition parties (and their supporters) in The Gambia.
>> If it had
>> been Ousainou Darbo or someone else, then someone would probably be
>> coming
>> along and questioning Ousainou's motives
>> too.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't think that anyone in PDOIS is any more or less prone to
>> hero worship
>> than a supporter from any other party, but I've always detected a
>> hint of, I
>> can't find the right word for it, but a hint of defensiveness and
>> and a
>> sorta cult-like hero-worship where Halifa is concerned, though this
>> definitely doesn't hold true for every PDOIS supporter. And Halifa
>> is
>> human, prone to error, just like anyone else, though if you listen
>> to some
>> people talk, he's the best thing since sliced bread, and if you don't
>> support him, then there's something wrong with you, you're stupid,
>> uneducated, or any number of invectives.
>>
>>
>>
>> Notwithstanding all of this, at least in the most recent case of
>> witch-hunting, no matter why Halifa did what he did, he did it!
>> And if
>> anyone wants to question Halifa's motives for doing so, I'd like a
>> little
>> more than speculation, i.e., direct quotes, hard evidence, etc., for
>> example, to sit there and say "if Halifa knew he'd be arrested,
>> he'd not
>> have done what he did". Which doesn't make sense to me because if
>> memory
>> serves me, Halifa has been detained before, so surely he knew that
>> his
>> actions could well land him in detention of some sort.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I've only read through some of the posts as the back-and-
>> forth was
>> giving me a headache. And it's just the same old "Halifa is
>> selfish/thinks
>> we're stupid/whatever" meme against Halifa, and the "Halifa is
>> great and
>> wonderful and how dare you question him/we all k
>> now what you're trying to do/you're trying to tarnish the image of
>> the most
>> courageous Gambian to ever walk the face of the earth/what you're
>> saying
>> about Halifa is patently untrue", on the other side.
>>
>>
>>
>> And from my vantage point, the true is probably somewhere in the
>> middle of
>> those two extremes. Halifa hs done much to educate Gambians, has
>> done much
>> to empower them electorally, and he has put his life on the line to
>> stand up
>> for Gambians. But last I checked, he was human just like the rest
>> of us,
>> he's not perfect, and just like the other opposition leaders (who
>> by being
>> opposition leaders and human rights lawyers, etc., have also put
>> their lives
>> on the line for The Gambia), have also made mistakes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ginny
>>
>>
>>
>>
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