Rene, going through your last post, I had to stop mid way because I do not
understand what is meant by two different democracies; people democracy and
social democracy. And by the way, that's only because I do not live in your
closet world of fantasies and wishful invention. In the real world,
democracy means only one thing; 'of the people, for the people and by the
people'. It is the system of governments that normally differ in the real
world of democracy.
You have already admitted that the principles that underpins democracy are
universal and that really did it for me. If you keeping talking like that
very soon we will all be talking one language; party led alliance under the
leadership of the UDP and in line with universal standards of coalition
politics.
You are quite right on Haruna. He does very well understands logic and that
means you should ask no more as to why he disagrees with you for the answer
is crystal clear; the notion you subscribed to is logically incoherent.
The philosophical struggle you espoused here has nothing to do with us or
the struggle for democratic change in the Gambia. I rather you keep that as
an exclusive PDOIS affair. We have other things to worry ourselves about.
If pdois wants compromise, we surely have given them plenty of offers on
that. For example, they said they want a transition of 5yrs even though we
are not emerging from a state of war; and we said have it. They also said
they don't want the successful candidate to seek re-election or support
another candidate even though they knew very well that this will be a
violation of individuals' constitutional right and freedom to seek election
to public office and/support anyone who seek to do the same; and we said
have it. What more do they want; a coalition built on the totality of
Halifa's will???? And by the way what have PDOIS given in return?
Absolutely nothing.
PDOIS gladly embraced UDP's overtures and concessions but then awfully
failed to reciprocate any of them to the extend that their position is
asking for nothing short of a coalition based exclusively on their own
whims and caprices or shall I say the whims and caprices of their Grand
Ayatollah. No wonder when Halifa talked about building consensus, he meant
a consensus built exclusively behind his personal conviction. Most people
already find that to be not only arrogant but also repugnant giving the
urgent need for opposition unity.
The concept of a UDP led alliance is based on the very fundamental
democratic principle that the legitimacy to lead in any political
dispensation is derived from the majority and that majority in our case, is
with the UDP. You have not denied this, have you??
PDOIS can still take this argument away from us but then it will require
them to have more votes than us in a given general election. That is how
legitimacy is earned, am afraid.
UDP positions are always based on democratic principles and are always
justified. I don't any objective person can say the same of PDOIS.
Like I said before, a collection of indignant clowns like the PDOIS
leadership should be left alone in their loners' closet as progressive
Gambians continue to dialogue among themselves as to how to bring peaceful
democratic change in the Gambia.
Thanks
Daffeh
On Tuesday, 28 May 2013, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Daffeh, I am aware that Haruna understands logic. In fact he is very
good at it. But if words and phrases are removed from their contextual
composition they can be given new meanings and definitions.
>
> When we talk about democracy, we are talking about a concept. Though
the principles that underline the concept can be universal, its character
and form can be defined and refined. Thus you can have different kinds of
democracies. You can have a social democracy and you can have a people's
democracy. That is why some people argue that it is relative.
>
> Again, when we talked about rebuilding a society or a nation we are
not using these terms without their historical antecedent.
>
> "We know how the nation-state evolved. We know how the interaction
between people who occupied the same geographic space, with different
dialects and ethnic groupings, were unified into a nation with a common way
of life and a national identity. We know how the nationalist movements that
were fighting against colonialism and for political independence exploited
the linguistic characteristics of the people in their struggles for self
determination, national sovereignty and political independence. We know
that these nationalist movements succeeded to do away with their
monarchical constitutions and replace them with a constitution with
national characteristics.
>
> "However, the drive to national sovereignty and political
independence were carried out by different nationalist movements. Some of
these movements after gaining power acted and behaved just like the
colonialist they have overthrown. Others have no development agenda other
than the fact that they defeat one repressive regime to replace it with
another repressive regime. Others used people as a prefix in everything to
give the impression that the people are in control when in actual fact
power with all its monarchical inclinations were consolidated in an
executive. In our case we see the results both in the first and second
republics.
>
> "There is ample evidence to indicate that the nationalist revolutions
do not necessarily bring liberty and empowerment to the people. The reason
that we are carrying out struggles decades after our nations have gained
political independence, is a testament to the fact that a democratic
revolution which we are still struggling to attain, has ever been elusive.
>
> "And this is where PDOIS stands. They know that the national
liberation struggles have liberated peoples and nations. This was the first
phase of the nationalist revolution. You cannot liberate a people without
liberating a nation. The second phase of the nationalist revolution is to
build a sovereign nation. Without a sovereign nation you cannot have a
sovereign people. It is this sovereign nation and people that PDOIS is
struggling to build."
>
> I have put the above in quotes because it is my interpretation of a
PDOIS political literature to the best of my understanding. I hope it will
help to give some context to some of the questions Haruna has raised.
>
> Democracy has a process and it is the means by which people give
authority and representation to another to act for them and to speak for
them. And we know the role of political parties in this process.
>
> Therefore if PDOIS has the mandate of the people through this
process to act and speak for them, obviously they should be in a position
to do all of the things that Haruna has questioned.
>
> I am going to hold you to your admission that you can be open to
compromise. Just don't start with your insistence in a party-led coalition.
>
> Rene
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: UDP United Kingdom <[log in to unmask]>
> To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 8:04 pm
> Subject: Re: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in Raleigh???????????????
>
> Haruna, I like the gist of your question to Rene but its sooooooo funny
that I can't stop laughing.
>
> By the way; the Nyakoi bridge is still up for sale. Wonder if Rene would
be interested.
>
> Cheers
> Daffeh
>
> On Sunday, 26 May 2013, Haruna <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Rene,
> >
> > Consensus is an English word. If Halifa does not mean it the way the
English defined it with context, might he consider using a different word
that explains his idea?
> >
> > You are right that Halifa does not mean consensus build around your
"conventional wisdom" or "standard practices" of coalition politics, but if
you would have objectively interrogate the premise upon which his consensus
is built, without injecting your subjective inclinations in its overall
outcome, you would have understood that no matter how coded the language
is, grasping its essence and its material import is not really beyond our
understanding. You are one who is making something simple to be very
complicated.
> >
> > Whilst you are interested in the continuation of the system with
your "conventional wisdom" and "standard practices'", PDOIS is interested
in a democratic process that will build the democratic and institutional
framework that underpins the civic, political, economic, social and
cultural life of the people. We want to rebuild a society. You want to
perpetuate the status quo. This is the difference.
> >
> > What does Halifa mean by "Democratic Process", "Democratic &
Institutional Framework", "civic, political, economic, social, and cultural
life of the people".
> >
> > I understand you want to rebuild a society but those who populate
that society have not given you the permission to rebuild them in your
image. They are telling you to unite with their fellows in order to remove
a disease that is decimating them. Yahya. They are sick. And they want you
to join in creating the antibiotic. When the disease is contained, they may
hire you to rebuild their roads, schools, hospitals, farms, water supply.
They want you to leave their minds and freedoms to them to care for. They
want to accord you your freedom to rebuild your own mind however you deem
proper. They want you out of their bedrooms and religions. They don't want
you preying on the minds of their children and grandchildren. Make your own
children and grandchildren and rebuild their minds, civic, political,
social, and cultural lives. Why would you burden yourself with building a
society who hasn't given that responsibility to
you??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> ????????????
> >
> > Quite baffling.
> >
> > If this is your sole purpose, why would you give the excuse for not
attending the Raleigh congress to be "Diaspora should build consensus
first, then Home should build consensus, then they should come together to
build a united front." Your partners in DIASPORA and HOME, whose society
you want to rebuild in your image, they are not interested in you
rebuilding their minds and civic (religion & industry), political (freedoms
of association and assembly), social (relationships with their fellows),
and cultural (religion & industry) LIVES. Why force yourself on a people
for 3 decades, and unawares, embolden the diseases that threaten to
decimate them??????????????????????
> >
> > When they are completely ravaged by the disease, whose minds, civic,
political, social, and cultural lives will you seek to REBUILD? And for
what reason??? or are you actually looking forward to the day when all,
except your partisans, will have been killed by the disease?????? You are a
political party afterall. Or are you really?????????????????????
> >
> > Haruna.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: UDP United Kingdom <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Sun, May 26, 2013 8:50 am
> > Subject: [G_L] PDOIS explains its Absence in Raleigh???????????????
> >
> > Rene, how about your belligerent insistence on a consensus entirely
built on the back of Halifa's personal conviction and wishful ideology
against all practices and norms known on planet earth?? With that attitude
of yours, not only will there be no coalition; we won't even be able to
have a decent and constructive dialogue to engender compromise.
> >
> > Pdois is literally asking for a coalition that is based on the
totality of Halifa's will rather than a compromise solution. There is no
doubt that most people find that to be not only silly but also utterly
repugnant.
> >
> > I get your point about PDOIS's notion of democracy which is alien to
the real world of democracy anyway. So I am not surprised that you will
dismiss any coalition idea that is premised on conventional or standard
practices of coalition politics. In the real world of democracy, the
legitimacy to lead is always derived from the majority and that majority in
our case is with the UDP. This is an incontrovertible fact.
> >
> > PDOIS's 'democracy of circumventing the rules' to satisfy Halifa
narcissism is not acceptable to the vast majority of the people who
supports the opposition and I certainly will never give any comfort to the
kind of nonsense you espoused in it.
> >
> > The PDOIS party is a collection of indignant clowns and I think you
and your waifs should be left alone in your loners' closet.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Daffeh
> >
> > On Sunday, 26 May 2013, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> Daffeh,
> >> I am quite certain that with your attitude and your
belligerent posture towards what you deemed as conventional wisdom or
standard practices of coalition building, there will never be a coalition
now or in the near future. We are at it again, history repeating itself.
It seems that you are not learning from your past experiences. It did not
work before and it is not going to work now.
> >>
> >> You are right that Halifa does not mean consensus build
around your "conventional wisdom" or "standard practices" of coalition
politics, but if you would have objectively interrogate the premise upon
which his consensus is built, without injecting your subjective
inclinations in its overall outcome, you would have understood that no
matter how coded the language is, grasping its essence and its material
import is not really beyond our understanding. You are one who is making
something simple to be very complicated
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