Can you read the report? Does it make any sense to you? If it's all
technical with no explanation of age, history, changing technology (and
how the mortar sample shows changing technology), then your lab is
probably just that -- a lab with no understanding of history, evolution
of materials and therefore, how different materials change or age and
they have no ability to help you figure out what to use to match or
replace. This is what "conservation" is all about -- an understanding of
materials, their evolution, their weathering abilities, what causes them
to deteriorate and what to do about that deterioration. Therefore, ask a
conservator if you dont know or cant decipher a report. They'll help you
and will be glad to. I realize there arent too many down in MS b/c as
you know I was in AL where not only were there no conservators but there
were no architects that would dare ask a conservator b//c they already
had all the answers. I digress. Some can write reports that you can
read. There are those labs (or individuals) that can do that. I know an
architect in Raleigh that can actually do mortar and paint analyses
(primarily b/c he went to Columbia and learned to do those things before
he worked for the SHPO office and then went to architecture school).
There are people that are trained in conservation that can help...and
who can write reports. But a good quick test of the report is whether or
not it makes sense to you. If it doesnt, then the person probably does
not understand the material, it's development over time, its
deterioration over time, and what to do about those issues. I've seen
some paint analyses recently that werent worth the paper they were
printed on. They're all technical, spectro...yada yada yada... results,
and that had nothing to do with what color the county maintenance
department should match to when it's time to paint the county
courthouse. And this report came out of a famous bunch of folks that I'd
best not name or I'd lose my job. Get a report that you can read and
understand. Otherwise, it's not worth paying for. As John Walsh
recommends, you should get samples from several people/firms/labs and
then you can figure out whether or not the firm can help you or not.
Camille Agricola Bowman
Easement Technical Advisor
Tidewater Region Preservation Office
Department of Historic Resources
14415 Old Courthouse Way
Newport News, Virginia 23608
Tel: 757-503-1549 (NOTE: New Number)
Fax: 757-886-2808
________________________________
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Walsh
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:37 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] oh boy will you be stucco
"We can look at a masons work to see if its good how in the hell can I
look at a lab 's work and see if its good "
Py, I'll give a quick answer. I think judging a mason and a lab are
really not that different.
1) Instead of just asking for a mortar analysis decide what kind
of questions you have. Ask all of those things you mentioned (e.g.; can
you identify hot-mixed tabby and bull's blood?). If two labs answer
your questions differently than challenge them on each other's answers.
2) Ask for a sample report from a few labs. Compare the quality
and decide who gives you the level of information you're looking for.
I'm always ready to provide a sample of our work and even volunteer it
when I hear the potential client is uncertain about what they're
purchasing.
3) Look for transparency. If the report says the mortar is a
portland lime with a 1 : 2 : 8 ratio, look to see if they explain how
they determined it was a portland lime and what calculations they used
to come up with the ratio. Answers shouldn't magically appear without
supporting information. You're paying for the analysis and you have a
right to know what you're paying for. It may sound like mumbo-jumbo to
the general reader but it makes the lab accountable as their work can
always be checked by another lab.
Granted it ain't foolproof but neither is choosing a mason no matter how
good his mock-up looks. As for the cesspool, I'm usually asked to put
on my waders and ferret out the masonry cement jockeys once their mortar
starts falling out of the joints.
John
________________________________
From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
[log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BP] oh boy will you be stucco
" Over here I can get you a cheap little stucco ....and oh boy will you
be stuck-o"
Groucho to cheeko while selling Fla real estate in Coconuts 1929
If you don't want to drop the big bucks get John Ashursts book "cements
and Plasters "Donhead publishing or British Heritage very nice; simple
; more for repairs of historic British plaster but sometimes its just
the knowledge that people are looking for
Lab debate
many thanks for the lab information; upon further questioning the
architect just wanted something on paper for his file for a 1920s
university campus building
and those of us in the field always think lab tests are fairly simple
affairs
but in reality it appears from our interaction here that there is a lot
that gets overlooked; thrown out, or just swept under the rug ......
I know for example that unless you know what to look for
natural cement will never be identified as such .....nes pas ?
I know many labs won't recognize or comment on the setting properties of
19th cent brick dust; or sharp red sands with high Fe content
then there comes the question of the lime
and how reactive it is? Tabby for instance was poured "Hot "
how do we know that ?
or plaster had bulls blood ;or stucco mixes urine or manure for that
matter
I would imagine for instance on a project like Jefferson Davis 19 cent
beach house and libray here on the Mississippi coast (Beauvoir) severly
damaged by Katrina all this is very important science;
How does the state or the owner know what lab will give him accurate
evaluations? If we only get wet analysis it not suspect?
We can look at a masons work to see if its good how in the hell can I
look at a lab 's work and see if its good "
Is it just track record? Sometimes I think (like my architect)all
anybody wants is the paper and letterhead to give mouth service to the
owner
But the problem is deeper than that
Believe it or not I have also seen big (but not necessarily historic)
General contractors go out of their way to frustrate architects who have
little or no experience let alone patience with historic materials
ignore the lab results and accept "As equal" to put up what they
please.
I don't know if this flim flam happens with wood;
I know it happens to windows and mortar
"but down heah "its a problem now that the restoration market
is being flooded by out of work contractors who have
remolded homes and call it restoration
and the state guidelines for protecting such projects and the craftsmen
who traditionally work on them are vague so what happens is everybody
gets thrown into the cesspool of quasi qualified low bidders to fight
it out
I rest my case ..now if it pleases the court I will go out
and bounce with p'nut on the trampoline Py
**************
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