At 09:45 01/03/1999 +0100, you wrote:
Hi Axel,
>
>> medical experiments fortunately are a very clear defined thing. they are a
>> complete scientific fraud (...)
>> experiments with animals (torturing them in myriads of ways for unfathomable
>> reasons, actually) are a fundamental part of the religion of modern
>> medicine, and it seems that many people (the "researchers", maybe because of
>> a terrible childhood) have a insatiable need to torture helpless beings to
>> death. the whole thing is barbaric.
>
>What you say is partially true, but I would like to soften your
>statement a little bit.
axel:
actually i am being very soft. go and read some serious book on antivivisection.
jean-louis:
On the point of view of researchers, doing
>experiments on animals (e.g. testing a new drug) is a not necessarily
>pleasant task, but is justified by the fact that it could save human
>lives (i.e. they prefer to kill 10000 mice to save 100 humans than let
>100 humans die).
axel:
this is COMPLETELY, ABSOLUTELY FALSE. animal experiments DO NOT SAVE LIVES
(in fact, they are responsable of many serious health problems and who knows
of how many unnecesary death just because this religion says that torturing
an animal "proves" that a toxic man-made chemical can help a human being) .
"justified"? check out some laboratories or read about it and then come and
tell me it is "justfied". do you justify extreme torture for no reason
whatsover, on MILLONS of animals that can not defend themselves?
also: EVEN if animal experiments helped people ( what is just a myth) it is
in my opinion NOT justified! you know, it is not only about helping people.
there is also ethics, things like you do not really want to torture
creatures, etc.
testing anything on an animal, with absurdly high doses, in extremely
stressful environments, cannot possible have ANYTHING to do with helping
human beings! how can anyone believe this? very simple: for the same reason
that people believe eating SAD is good for you: proganda since our
childhood, and the mighty power of the religion of orthodox medicine, this
really gets me. if anyone is interested in finding out the truth about the
fraud of animal experiments, there is a GREAT book, "slaughter of the
innocent", by Hans Ruesch. i think it was the first to expose the scientific
fraud of animal experiments. do not be fooled into believing that we have to
choose between experimenting on animals or experimentig on people. it is
like saying you have to choose between dying of AIDS or taking AZT. false!
jean-luis:
One could argue that modern medicine is often
unnecessary, that people should, instead of taking drugs, improve
their diet, exercise, reduce stress, etc. but in reality, they don't
>want, or are not able to do that.
Therefore, we are left with the
>following dilemma:
> -sacrify (preferably small) animals, or
> -test the drugs directly on humans, and take the risk that the drug
>could have dangerous side-effects, or
> -don't treat patients at all, let them die.
axel:
wrong. the above are not real choices. testing deadly toxic chemicals drugs
on animals has nothing to do with helping people. (also, there is a false
assumption that ANY kind of experiment is ESSENTIAL for human well-being!
granted, there are useful studies, but NOT the ones that involve torturing
animals.
another myth is that the human race needs ever more and more drugs from the
pharmaceutical industry. do you believe we need always new drugs? what for?
letīs torture a few thousand animals ītill they go insane of pain and fear,
then, just because, letīs give the drug to a sick human being so maybe, who
knows how, he is going to get well. it makes a lot of sense, right? it
really astonishes me that you have this lenghty scholar exchanges on oxalic
acid and other stuff, and you believe in this religion.
if you read the book i mentioned you will find how many myths and fallacies
are part of vivisection. so much, in fact, that it is hard to believe. it is
similar to aids: the WHOLE thing is false! nothing in it is useful for anybody.
jean-luis:
In my opinion, the first option is the least bad of all three,
axel:
yeah, but the animals you have to torture in ways so abominable that many
people cannot even READ about it, do not agree with you, that is for sure.
experiments with animals (this should be known, but the interests at stake
are just too powerful) are akin to nazi genocide. check out the book i
mentioned above.
axel makaroff
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