Hi Tom,

Although I have addressed most of your arguments in here
elsewhere, I will comment on some again.

> > Tom:
> > >>Fruitarianism is a failure because it is far beyond the range of
> > >>diets that we are adapted to by evolution (and the claims of certain
> > >>fruitarian advocates that we evolved as fruitarians, are nothing more
> > >>than bogus crank science).
>
> Alan:
> >On which basis do you hold this view? There are quite a number of
> >pure fruitarians in Germany (often the "patients" of Helmut
> >Wandmaker in our group, for one) who not only live but also thrive on this
> >diet.
>
> Tom:
> I have discussed the long-term failure of fruitarianism, and how many
> "success stories" turn out to be fake, here - both recently and in
> the past. Spend some time in the archives:
>
> http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/raw-food.html
>
I am not a fruitarian myself (as I have said before) but our
fruitarians here (in our group) are both serious and still manage
to convince me that "availability" and cost are THE ONLY barriers
to a successful fruitarian diet. It is an expensive diet nowadays
if you do not have connections or your own resources.

> I am aware that some fruitarian "experts" claim a scientific basis for
> the diet. However, such claims inevitably fall apart under close scrutiny.

There are many people who live on experience and consider themselves
the scientific bases themselves. Scientific "fact" was also that the
world is a flat disc. Personally, I pay less and less attention to
scientific papers. It used to be my job, now I prefer to love my
wife or play the didgeridoo or write to frustrated health freaks
(only joking of course).

> Indeed, some of those promoting fruitarian crank science, do so in a
> vicious, hateful and dishonest manner (in my opinion).

I wonder why? Where are you? There aren't that many cranks over
here (at least not on the nutrition front).

> A number of
> fruitarian cranks have been expelled from this list (and others)
> for their inability to behave like human beings. I wonder if such
> aberrant behavior is caused by their diet?  :-)
>
This has been discussed and rejected as a possible cause. ;-)

> By the way, I don't know the folks you mention. I need a great deal of
> info and time to evaluate such claims. To date, no claim has proved
> genuine. My experience is that if you look at a "role model" long enough,
> you will find a cheater, a binge eater, a crank, a fake,  someone with
> a serious eating disorder (or other mental health problems), etc.
>
To be honest, such cranks are usually loners and do not belong
to some recognised and "serious" group.

> Alan:
> Readers letters in our journal undermine this.
>
> Tom:
> Fruitarianism can work in the short run; the long-run is the problem. Due
> to the extensive eating disorder behavior found in fruitarianism, and the
> reality that many fruitarian "diet gurus" are known fakes, cranks, or of
> dubious mental health, one must be cautious in assessing claims of success.
> By the way, EVERY diet, EVERY supplement seller has reams of testimonials.
> If you want me to blindly accept fruitarian testimonials, you will have to
> accept the testimonials of ketgogenic diet, Aajonus, the Zone, Protein Power,
> macrobiotics, ad nauseum...
>
I'll keep an eye on Helmut Wandmaker..although I hope I'm as healthy
as he in my 70s (I'm only 51 ATM).

> Alan:
> >Leaving aside
> >vitamin B12 (a deficiency of which none of the fruitarians reports
> >having) what do you feel is missing or low in this diet from the
> >point of view of nutrients?
>
> Tom:
> Calcium, zinc may be deficient.

No calcium problems reported. Zinc is a problem when eating produce
from zinc-depeleted soils (large-scale agriculture).

> Protein may be deficient on ~100%
> fruit diets.

There is no such thing as a protein deficiency. Do you know of
anyone with such a complaint? Human protein is built from
aminos, whereby we need to eat only the essential ones. Fruits
(not just one type) contain enough essential aminos to supply
even a serious bodybuilder. Name me three fruits out of your
head and let us look at the amino content.

> (In my opinion, the anti-protein fanatics who claim protein
> is harmful, are probably getting their protein via binge-eating.)

Never heard of "anti-protein fanatics"..at least not here. If
you mean anti meat and dairy OK. Raw untained meat is indeed an
excellent source of ALL the essential aminos. Apart from any
other arguments against meat, why should I expend digestive
energy breaking down meat protein to get at the essential aminos
when I can get them pure in fruit (and veggies)?

>> Calories may be inadequate (look at the emaciated fruitarians).

I suspect you are looking at the emaciated macrobiotic crowd (of the
past as nowadays they realise that raw grains are the culprit).
I do not know any emaciated fruitarians. What do you mean by
emaciated? They all carry their natural weight. Some put on
weight through additional bodybuilding, others just stay at
their natural weight with merely moderate exercise.

> Some fruitarians may have PEM: protein-energy malnutrition. However,
> due to the mental "buzz" of fruitarianism (zinc deficiency),
> they don't mind until things get very serious...

PEM sounds like a "buzz" word in itself. Protein does not provide
the body with energy. An energy deficiency is caused in the first
instance by not eating enough carbohydrates. Something which a
fruitarian has no problem with.

>
> Fruitarian diets may also have excessive levels of sugar, for a
> person's genetic level of insulin resistance.

Insulin resistance????

> This may explain
> the diabetes-like symptoms displayed by many fruitarians:

Unknown here. Please fill me in.

> urinating
> every 5-10 minutes,

Known only from eating raw stringbeans.

> pains in joints,

Known only by those who omit unsaturated fats.

> intermittent blurred vision,

Known only by those who omit unsaturated fats.

> fatigue, etc.

Not known.

I appreciate your posts Tom because they reflect the experiences of
some other nation (where are you BTW?). It would be interesting to
discuss some of those experiences/observations/theories with you
as some of what you claim has not been observed here in Europe.

> >I am not a pure fruitarian
>
> Tom:
> It doesn't matter to me if you are or are not a fruitarian. Unlike
> a certain fruitarian extremist group (who are so hateful they are considered
> a hate group, in the opinion of many), I don't believe that we should hate
> people who have different diets.
>
You have extremists?? We certainly have the emotionalists and the
religeous..and they can be extreme. But extremist fruitarians from
the point of view of nutrition???

Best regards,

Alan