Kathy,

Do you think God intended the church, that is the congregation to lead the 
church or the man of God appointed  or charged with that responsibility to 
lead the church? If such an incident were to stand before James or Paul, 
would it be a decision for the congregation or the one discipling them? 
Curious where this lihne of leadership is drawn.

Brad


on 08:10 AM 4/24/2006, Kathy Du Bois said:

Phil,
         We don't say the pledge during worship, but your post causes me 
to ask you another question.  The words, "under God," were not added until 
1954 in response to McCarthyism and the communist witch hunts of the 
50s.  This means that, during world war 2, those words were not 
there.  Soldiers of that day were fighting under a pledge that simply 
said, "one nation, indivisible."  Now, there is talk again of removing 
those words from the pledge.  Would you feel differently about the 
American flag and it's position next to the Christian flag if those words 
are once again removed?  I'm just curious.
         As far as Greg and I deciding anything, our denomination is more 
locally run, meaning that congregations have a lot of say over how things 
go.  The pastor may have his opinion, and, biblically, he could be right, 
but majority will rule.  If the congregation had voted yesterday to keep 
the American flag in the honored position, we would have to accept it as 
the rule of the people.  The majority supported Greg, but the veteran's 
all opposed him.  Actually, Greg didn't even start this fight, one of the 
Veterans did so we have been put in the position of responding, more or 
less.  I'd still prefer just getting the things out of the worship space 
altogether.  I suppose I'm just a wimp at heart.
Kathy


At 09:02 PM 4/23/2006, you wrote:
Kathy,

I honestly don't know what I would do.  Frankly, at my advanced age, I
probably wouldn't make a big deal over it but I have been known to make a
big deal before and out of something I probably should have let go.  I
understand the spiritual side of the issue, however, and I am referring to
taking a standing and putting God first.  As I see it, though, I don't 
feel
putting the American flag where protocol says it should be displayed, as
putting God second, or lower, or anything else.  I feel that way, simply
because, as I said, the American flag, in my opinion, stands for religious
freedom.  Without its symbolism, there would be no Christian flag even
possible.  I don't consider them equals but if it were truly an issue of 
not
putting God first, that would be different.  I really don't think most
people, and I can't speak for those in your church because you know them
better than anybody on this list, consider the American flag putting God
second.  If we were talking about the Bible here, as I mentioned, that 
would
be worth fighting for.  I like the Christian flag and the pledge that goes
with it.  I like the pledge that goes with the Bible, too, for that 
matter,
but the pledge to the American flag does still say, one nation under God, 
so
that carries a lot of weight in my opinion.  The Christian pledge says
nothing about America, freedom, or liberty, without which, again, there
would be no Christian flag.  So I don't know.  I'm just glad you and your
husband have to decide on this one.  If it were me?  I'd probably leave it
just like it is since that's how others want it.  By the way, one nation
under God, is spoken exactly that way, too, in the pledge because there is
no comma in the phrase.  If you aren't saying the pledges to the American
flag and the Christian flag each service, I'd leave it alone but frankly,
there is truth on both sides of this issue and I honestly don't know which
is which.

Phil.