On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:13:16 -0400, Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>But there is reason to think that one would *not* tolerate these
>protein sources at these intake levels.  For example, suppose I
>want to get 115g of protein from sunflower seeds.  To do so I
>have to eat about 500g of them.

For 500g sunflower seeds  I get 125 g protein
That's more as meat would have. But should be more difficult to eat...
(I can't imagine to eat a pound of meat nor sunflowers)

Thats 230% of the RDA, RDA is about twice the minimum needs on amino acids.
That makes 4-fold what nitrogen balance reported as permanent need.
And it means that 3/4 of these protein, 93g pure protein, would (everyday?)
be downgraded to glucose. While the nitrogen part of it is made to ammonium
and to urea and excreted.
I think, 93g is not little if you have to piss is out...

Some of the 93 g protein will be made to NO (you said 3-6 g from arginine).
If I was on a ketogenic diet, I guess I would need the glucose.
But otherwise I think less would be more.

>  So far, so good.  But I will also have to
>ingest about 165g of omega-6 fat, while also getting only .35g of
>omega-3.  The w6:w3 ratio is 471:1 -- not exactly balanced.
>Other seeds would be similar in this respect.

Pumpkin seeds report better ratios, but with a great variation.
I'd definetely not eat that much. Maybe 1/8 of this (1/2 RDA) as a add on.
Then the w-6 fat is easy to compensate and a valuable EFA source.
Sunflowers add pretty much B1 , b6, magnesium.
As my other caloric input is well accompanied with protein (except the pure
fats), I normally end up above RDA.


>> I suggest to introduce prolonged hours without eating, particularly
>> prolonging the nighttime. By haveing dinner not too late and/or haveg no
>>or a nor carbohydrate breakfast.
>
>I interpret this as another of the "costs" of a low-protein diet:
>one must introduce the discipline of fasting to achieve a result
>comparable to what eating animal protein would bring about.

Are you feeling hungry in the morning? I seldom do.
Prolonging the night gap (a little) would be easy for me.
Only thinking about it helped me to get rid of the 2 kg I didn't like to
have (Now I have 70kg at 184 cm).
I didn't feel like fasting, the short term storage seems to work.

>..energy from fat, so you need carnitine to utilize it.  But
>there's no carnitine in plant foods, so you must make it.  But
>you make carnitine from glucose, and in your seed-based diet you
>won't be getting much of that either.  So you will have to use up
>some of that protein to make carnitine so that you can burn the
>fats that you are relying on for energy.

I love to eat fat with my non-meat nutrition.
There are some problems assiciated with it. To make carnitine seems not to
be a problem. Plenty of glucose is there and protein should be in range.
But eating much fat seems to elevate vitamin-b12 usage.
2-3 RDAs leave with the bile into the gut and are reabsorbed (almost
totally). Needing more bile could elevate the B12 requirements.


>Eating animal protein does not change the acidity of blood.

To my information *any* protein changes the acidity more to the acid side.
Do you have different information?

>  There really is no good reason for
>anyone to choose a meat-only diet.  Even a rather lowcarb diet
>like the Lutz plan provides plenty of room for low-density plant
>foods with phytonutrients.

That's true and shouldn't be forgotten.
There's the danger that the low-density plant foods are consumed less when
you macronutrient hunger is satisfied.

Especially for SAD prople, who don't care to eat zero vitamin calories.
With SAD, let say common western diet I'd include the more conscious eater
in the west. In Germany the average consumes 250g of meat per day, thats one
RDA protein. Such people just don't need the protein from other sources.
That makes it possible to eat zero-protein calories.
Which in turn are zero-vitamin.

>> > Even though we are equipped to survive in conditions of
>> >extreme protein scarcity, it doesn't seem like a good idea to
>> >inflict such conditions on ourselves.
>>
>> But at least from time to time should be beneficial.
>> Like short famine periods, definetely paleo.
>
>I don't have any particular opinion on whether it is beneficial
>to experience periods of low protein intake.  Perhaps so.

I was not thinking about protein famine.
But general food shortages should have been common in paleo times.
Maybe for some days, at least some hour. If nothing was there, you couldn't
just go to the fridge.

If there was food, it always was with protein.
At least at the level of fruit.


>  I
>am only extending Peter Brandt's point about the way in which
>animal protein makes it easier for human beings to *thrive*. For
>this I think we need more protein than what those nitrogen
>balance tests suggest, and to get that much protein from plant
>sources is problematic.

Makes it easier, yes.
If you think of protein as a critical point, and avoid dairy.

As I told before, I don't see this only nutritionally.
To be vegetarian is also a quest.

I'll probably re-introduce some white cheese after some time, as every year.
I'll do it 'cause I like it.
Particularly quark with flax oil (that's the Budwig food).
Then I'll have back animal proteins and be less paleo, unfortunately.

Regards,

Amadeus