On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:25:12 -0400, Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>... you are assuming that there is something problematic about
>using protein as fuel, but there is no evidence that this is the
>case. The most that can be said is that it is problematic to use
>protein as the *only* fuel. There is no evidence that "more work
>of the kidney" is harmful.
I agree for the case of a healthy kidney.
I wanted to leave open what "more work" for the kidney means.
The kidney seems to be able to manage it and I can't tell if there's a limit
in time for a certain workload.
Half of the amino acids eaten are fueled anyway.
> The second assumption is that the
>other benefits of additional protein--which you mention--are not
>significant enough to justify the use of more concentrated
>protein sources.
I said, that double the minimum protein should be enough for the additional
benefits. For an ideal protein that would be the RDA (which is in germany
.78g/kg bodyweight). For meat it would be about 30% more (as the minimum).
For wheat (only) the RDA protein would be 16% less than the minimum.
The question more concentrated or not isn't implied , first hand.
As long as you tolerate the less concentrated proteins well, it's easy to
increase the protein intake way above RDA
(as I tried with sunflowers for some time).
>It has become clear, for example, that NO is
>indeed an important protein metabolite, and since NO requires
>substantial amounts of arginine, the best way to get it is to eat
>meat. Yes, you could get it from peanuts, but you'd need to eat
>large amounts of them...
Do you have more detailed information how much of NO and arginine would be
desireable? I plan to run a database query on arginine.
As in the case of tryptophan/serotonin, not all proteins are created equal
and there may be food items of particular interest. I suppose a individual
preferrence to such food items too.
As every year I've made some vegan weeks right now.
I noted an increased appetite and interest on some protein items like
pumpkin seeds.
>.. It's also very interesting that to achieve a balance
>of insulin and glucagon, a substantial amount of protein is
>needed, a lot more than what is needed simply to achieve nitrogen
>balance.
I suggest to introduce prolonged hours without eating, particularly
prolonging the nighttime. By haveing dinner not too late and/or haveg no or
a nor carbohydrate breakfast.
If you look at the long hours of glucagon time and the amount of calories
burned in this time, it should be a relative easy way to
1. get rid of calories
2. promote good eicosanoids.
> Possibly related to this is Wolfe's research indicating
>that higher protein intake improves blood lipids. Finally, there
>is also evidence that greater amounts of animal protein have a
>protective effect against osteoporosis, for reasons that are not
>yet clear.
For people who experienced a protein deficit before the reason would be
clear (missing enzymes). Protein deficit might not be too seldom in all
cases with slowed glycogen/glucose cycles - they need to burn a lot of
protein to get additional glucose, and that very much meat (of cattle or
own) for small glucose amounts.
>There are good reasons to believe, however, that we thrive on
>more protein, especially animal protein.
I'll also take a closer look on the sulphur amino acids which are more in
animal proteins. The ideal protein contained a small amount of egg, at last.
I think because of the rich supply of these AAs.
> By avoiding animal
>protein, you probably avoid using much protein as fuel, but I'm
>unaware that there is any known advantage to this avoidance.
Blood acidity.
The lower density plant protein brings with it not only problematic stuff,
but also some goodies like phytosterols vitamins.. a lot of beneficial
substances. Which look to me as the reason for the benefits of the
mediterranean diet (with more vegetables).
For SAD persons the situation is worse: they eat 1 or 2 RDAs of protein as
meat, and the rest often as "calories only" food - like sweets.
Such items tend to cause vitamin undersupply, particularly with folate,
thiamin, Vitamins C and K.
>If we look at the whole picture concerning proteins, and not just
>the nitrogen balance tests, it's clear that there are more
>reasons to consume animal protein than there are reasons to avoid
>it.
Nutritionally you may be right.
> Even though we are equipped to survive in conditions of
>extreme protein scarcity, it doesn't seem like a good idea to
>inflict such conditions on ourselves.
But at least from time to time should be beneficial.
Like short famine periods, definetely paleo.
Amadeus S.
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