Hi Phil, Thank you for your answer. See below: On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 at 16:36, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Dear Peter, > I think your point/question is a very good one. I also think that many > Christians do not explore the nuances of salvation like you do here. What > you say extends to people who don’t believe in God, but it also applies to > people who believe in a different God, or belong to a different group of > people who believe in the same God. Muslims. Jews. Christians. They all > believe in the same God. > What makes that God the same? Is the Christian God who was incarnated as Jesus the same as the Jewish or Muslim God who was not? I know that it is good marketing to say (as Paul did very effectively) that this God is not something new - though he described that as the 'unknown God' rather than the Jewish God. The Muslims did that with both Judaism and Christianity. But the Gods of those 3 religions are not the same as each other and are not seen to have the same relationship with believers. The Jewish God is the God of a people, individual worship is not meaningful, there is no concept of a soul or original sin. The Muslim God is not represented by a priesthood who would get between the individual and God (what are seen by non-Muslims as priests are emphatically not, they are acknowledged scholars. > Do they go to church together? NO. Catholics and Protestants. Do THEY go > to church together? No. Why not? Because people stumble over details of > history and theology. People do what Jesus said when he criticized the > religious leaders of his day. His disciples were picking wheat on the > Sabbath, and the leaders got on Jesus’s case and told him to tell them to > stop (because you’re not supposed to work on the Sabbath). Jesus told them > that they made rules that burdened people with a host of laws and a > legalistic system that was oppressive but they didn’t do anything to help > relieve the pain of it all. He said, “The Sabbath was made for people not > people for the Sabbath.” God had built a rest into the religious system, > but people had turned it into a task. > Similarly, even the Protestant and Catholic Gods relate to people differently. The Catholic God relates via the intermediary of the Church and the Pope, who are to be obeyed. The Protestants are somewhere between the Catholics and the Muslims. Those differences are not 'details', but central questions about how God relates to believers. Of course I would say that these differences show that we are basically making it all up! > > People create walls that separate and alienate. In gestalt therapy we > have called that “othering.” I’m not sure that God, when you really get > down to it, creates those same walls. Linda and I are questioning this > whole thing a lot more now, and perhaps it’s our age. I don’t know. I know > that some of our friends who are our age are also questioning. Two in > particular lived in Palestine for five years, and they are not very happy > about what Israel is doing in Gaza. When we talk and think together about > the extent of Christ’s sacrifice, we find ourselves realizing that He died > for everyone, and that includes the Muslims. We realize that nobody has > every bit of theology exactly right, and so everyone is off somewhere; so, > where is the dividing line that puts one person in and the other out? I > know that Sylvia Crocker believed that everyone is going to heaven because > God loves people and Jesus died for everyone. I don’t think it’s that > simple, but I don’t think, going in the other direction, that people we > might think are not going to heave will actually be kept out. > I understood that for Christians this was the point. Jesus died for everybody, but the implication is that to be 'saved' you have to accept the sacrifice, it was not a free gift. > > If you think about the extent of Christ’s sacrifice, there is no end to > it. He didn’t just die for a few people living in a small country next to > the Mediterranean. He didn’t just die for the people who would believe in > Him and come to be called “Christians.” He died to wipe out the stain of > sin that separated every single person from God. I think the word “sin” is > inflammatory. C.S. Lewis once described human beings as little children who > would rather play in the mud of the gutter than to enter into a beautiful > English garden. Imagine a group of such children, covered in mud, who were > invited to come into the house where goodies had been baked and were > waiting for them to eat. All they had to do was to step under a running > shower before entering the house. Those who chose to do so, which of course > meant getting soaking wet, could come in, but those who preferred the mud > could not (because the owner of the house did not want them bringing mud > into the house!). Regardless, the owner of the house still loved them all > and made a genuine offer to each one. > Given a choice, I would rather be out in the muddy hills than an artificially tidy garden, and bring my own food rather than give up that choice. > > Are non-believers damned? What is a non-believer? > I am a non-believer. Really. I'm glad you have found a belief that sustains you so well. Really. For me what you have got is not knowledge, though it is an experience. I prefer the muddiness of the world to the plannedness of your world, and I am happy not to come into a house where that is not wanted. > When I was ten years old I would probably have been called a > non-believer. I lived in an alcoholic home. Sometimes it was bad, and I > would feel miserable and walk down the hill behind our house and sit under > a big fruit tree. There I would watch the billowy clouds float by in the > air currents over the Sacramento Valley. I would talk. Sometimes to > myself, in my mind and sometimes out loud, and go over the events that made > me feel bad. I would wonder why it had to be that way. I would tell the > clouds, tell the sky, tell … WHO? That I just didn’t want to be alive > anymore. Was God listening? Was God there with me? I have come to realize > that he was as much there and interacting with me, in and through my > thoughts and feelings—in my spirit—as He was when I addressed Him as a > believer and told Him He would have to pick from among the many matches I > was receiving from E-Harmony when I was alone in Bermuda. Linda’s picture > came up. Her face was painted red, and she had a chicken hat on. Then, from > over my left shoulder came all at once a thought that did not come from me. > “This is the one.” (And she was.) It was so strong that it was almost > audible. A lot of people think that God is the watch maker who set the > watch ticking and then vanished. That we don’t hear from God today like the > people in the Bible did. That is wrong. So, people have contact with God, > and they are given a certain amount of knowledge through that experience. > The key is whether a person responds and moves toward God or brushes it > aside and stands outside the house still covered in mud. And of course the > dialogue that people have with God, like this, is life long. Who am I to > say that this one is “saved” and that one is not? That is beyond my > capacity. But I believe God is having this dialogue with Muslims, Jews, > Christians, atheists, agnostics… Buddhists in Nepal, indigenous peoples in > various places… everyone. Russians and Ukrainians. > And the Russians are having a dialogue with a God who blesses their missiles and curses the gay people (and so do many Americans). The Taliban curses women, people who dance, gay people. What does it mean to say that there is one God who has those different dialogues? > > So, Linda and I have begun hosting conversations at our home in which we > bring together people from different walks of life, differing cultures, > different times of life. We talk about all kinds of things. We had a couple > over recently, and the woman reminded me of you, Peter. She was talking > about the quantum field, but she’s in the process of joining the Catholic > Church. Sometimes I meet with groups of men and we drink whiskey together, > smoke cigars, and talk theology. The last time I did that, I told one > pastor who was there, “When you came to preach at our church, you really > pissed me off!” I prefer being as transparent as I can and trusting in the > process. And that’s the way I am with this whole issue of what it takes to > be saved. When we look out at the universe, and when we consider the > revision of physics that is now underway given the lates things we’ve been > able to see, it is all WAY beyond me. God is much larger and more complex > than I had imagined, and I am puny and fragile in His presence. Given that, > I am amazed that He bothers with me. > I would say that the idea of a God who plans the world has become a totally unnecessary hypothesis in this complex understanding of physics, where chaos organises and species evolve without a prior plan, but that muddiness scares people so they try to bring God in anyway. The question for me is not whether God bothers with me but whether I bother with God! > > So, am I going to stand up in church and say that unbelievers are going to > heaven? No. As good as your thinking is on this subject, that question just > doesn’t apply to the actual situation. > But would you say muddy people should be as acceptable in the house? Peter > > Phil > > On Mar 10, 2024, at 2:34 PM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > I honour your stance politically, and your loving commitment to Ukraine. > I have just done a 3-day workshop online with people at the Kyiv Gestalt > University and they are wonderful people. > > I still have a BIG problem with 'God loves you anyway'. What do you > believe your God's response would be when I die not believing he exists? > If, like the majority of more fundamentalist Christians, you believe that I > will be punished for eternity, then that, for me, is how the > fundamentalists came to identify with Trump. They are both happy to > receive praise and cheers and money, and say they love us, but turn > vengeful if we don't believe in him (or her). In fact the differences are > that Trump's vengeance is less terrible, and we can't avoid it by voting in > a different God. > > So will you drop Trump-God and say in your congregation that non-believers > are not damned, or will you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? I > imagine that this is an unwelcome question, but if you insist that God > loves us, I think we need to know what that love means to you in practice. > > Best wishes, > > Peter > > On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 20:09, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> Dan >> I did not say that was ALL that I am doing. I am also working on behalf >> of Ukraine. I am as I’ve said voting straight democrat. I am speaking my >> mind into whatever venue and medium I can. If there is something I CAN do, >> I am doing it. I can fast and pray. That’s something I can do. It’s not an >> empty, costless, effortless and ultimately futile exercise. (I love >> coffee!!) The practice will constantly remind me of the importance of what >> is going on. It will test my resolve. There are other benefits that are >> between me and God. It’s okay if you don’t understand or value what I’m >> saying. >> >> God loves you anyway. ❤️😇😜 and so do I. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 10, 2024, at 1:49 PM, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> Phil: >> >> “Do” what you think is best for you. If prayer and fasting are actions >> that you think might tilt the course of the universe, go for it. Yet it >> reminds of the “you are in my hopes and prayers” response to victims of >> gun violence. >> >> I say this while maintaining my respect for your experience of >> being-in-the world-with-a god. >> >> Dan >> >> PS: You typed that on an iPhone? I can barely type understandable >> texts. >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2024, at 3:27 PM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> Dear Jack, >> Think figures of interest. We are all human. I don’t understand how the >> people whose figure is truly America first cannot see that America is best >> served to have Ukraine win. Totally win. The money designated for Ukraine >> is largely spent in the USA building or resupplying our reserves from what >> arms we send. It’s win-win. It’s probably one of the clearest examples of >> Trump serving himself rather than our country that he is taking the stance >> that he has. But even the people who have supposedly crawled out from under >> rocks are human beings with figures of interest; so, if we are ever going >> to get back to a politics of cooperation like what you say, we need to quit >> objectifying those whose difference is bewildering or even repulsive to our >> own values, beliefs, and figures of interest. I wish I could simply sit on >> my bench, talk with God, and let the world go to hell. But I can’t. I can’t >> fix it all. But I can do something, and I can (what’s that saying?) be the >> difference I want to see. Donald Trump may win, but I am doing what I can >> to further a different outcome, and that includes prayer. I’m paraphrasing >> but Jesus told his followers that big things happen only through prayer and >> fasting. Will you join me in fasting one day a week and praying for his >> defeat until the election is over? No coffee nor food for at least 24 >> hours. The fast could be something else you give up so that what you >> experience is an earnestness, an urgency. You may not believe in God; you >> may though sense that there is “something” responsible for the mathematical >> constants that structure our universe, something like a higher power about >> which you don’t know. Is this not a time for trying whatever a person CAN >> do? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 10, 2024, at 10:57 AM, Jack Neggerman <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Phil. >> >> I’m very impressed also with your Guts and integrity. There been a >> hostile takeover of your party, and a green light was given to the worst of >> Americans that came out from under their rocks. >> >> The party is in serious trouble which harms America and the world. I >> long for the way it used to be when partisans could respectfully >> collaborate. No doubt you do too! >> >> I respect your guts and integrity to go against your own grain like this. >> >> I wish you the best of health. >> >> Jack Neggerman, Cincinnati, Ohio USA >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 8, 2024, at 1:44 PM, Peter Cole <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> >> Wow Philip -- I am impressed! >> >> THank you for sharing your change of perspective. >> >> Warmly >> >> Peter Cole >> >> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 10:05 AM Peter Philippson < >> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> That is a brave thing to say and do. >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 16:43, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> "You can't love your country only when you win." --J. Biden, State of >>>> the Union, 3/7/24 >>>> Philip Brownell >>>> <https://www.facebook.com/philip.brownell?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDoxMDE2MjIyNDA4Mjk5NDM4NF8zNzQwODQ5MDg3MjU0MDA%3D&__cft__[0]=AZUfJvK7iTDc1o_FH7-NDi77LEGaiDsPhlrLi4P--wb5pZIKzK_KDYhU4FRyhBzUP6AWQu3wVkS0v6woZzQmG89S4dbUXLDNWwQsquB7DR4fSw&__tn__=R]-R> >>>> I am voting straight democrat this time. NOT because I have suddenly >>>> become a progressive. NOT because I think Biden is the best thing we could >>>> possibly put forward. NOT because I think the Republicans have been evil >>>> all along, and I just now woke up. In fact, I'm not "woke." I'm sickened by >>>> the turn to myopia and the obstructing of aid to Ukraine that has gripped >>>> the Republican party and by the partisan politics that plays games with our >>>> country and people's lives. If I thought it would have a chance, I'd vote >>>> for a third party. And I'm not into futile resistance votes like "none of >>>> the above." I HAVE shaken loose from a previous political loyalty. More >>>> accurately I feel that people with whom I previously felt a kinship have >>>> become unrecognizable. I have personal peace about the future, because I >>>> know God personally, but I am still in this world, and while I'm here I >>>> have a responsibility to act responsibly. >>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>>> public archives can be found at >>>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>>> found at the archives. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Peter (Philippson) >>> [log in to unmask] >>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>> public archives can be found at >>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>> found at the archives. >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. >> >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. > > > > -- > Peter (Philippson) > [log in to unmask] > ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested > in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives > can be found at > http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and > subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is > found at the archives. > > > ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested > in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives > can be found at > http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and > subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is > found at the archives. -- Peter (Philippson) [log in to unmask] ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.