Hi Dan,

An analogy might help. If a discussion about the future of Harvey Weinstein in Hollywood got diverted into a discussion of whether he was a better director than Sam Mendes, or whether he helped the career of this or that actor, that would be similarly irrelevant as a meaningful issue in that discussion. Or train punctuality under Hitler.

On trains: Trump is not a fascist, his constituency is massively anti interventionist (except what people do in bedrooms!), while the Nazis were massively centralising and interventionist and put a load of money into infrastructure. The fascists are behind him, ready to discard him, as the Nazis killed the populist wing in the Night of the Long Knives.

The churches: where is the absolute rejection by the hierarchy that is needed rather than individual actions? All that is needed for the triumph of evil...

I'm waiting for the Chinese New Year parade to start.

Best wishes,

Peter 

On Sun, 11 Feb 2024, 00:10 Dan Bloom, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Peter, explain your comment I highlighted in bold.  

Our election invites the “game of comparison.”

I agree re the appeal of Trump’s blunt strength. 

By the way, who got the trains running more in time? Hitler or Merkel?  Just curious… 

Regarding your second paragraph, I agree, although I don’t think of it as harshly as you. Just as Christianity in Germany survived the German Lutheran Church’s support for Hitler, so it shall in the US.   You are referring to the evangelicals and the Southern Baptists  in the US.  The other establishment faiths are not jumping onboard.   

Dan

On Feb 10, 2024, at 6:31 PM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

For me, this is still the game of comparison (who is more exciting, who passes more bills...).  People are getting disenfranchised, killed, threatened with death, allowed to die rather than sacrifice the foetus, and it is those who like the kind of strength that Trump shows that are complicit in this, with Trump's dog-whistle support.  No other issue comes close to this.  Did Hitler or Merkel get the trains running more on time?!  Irrelevant in the context.

And Phil, you are one of the complicit.  All the passes you gave Trump when it was absolutely obvious where he was going means that you are to blame with everyone else, however much you are now worried by the monster you yourself helped to create, and who the Republican Party and much of the Christian church are too cowardly and short-sighted to shake themselves free of.  So now either American democracy goes, or the Republican Party and much of Christianity go.  And then which side will you be Phil?

Peter



On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 at 23:11, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I am referring to the impulsive loyalty to him, not any considered judgment.   

In the early 1930’s, Emmanuel Levinas wrote an essay on what he referred to as “Hitlerism.”  He warned that the rational values of the Western Enlightenment were deficient and would collapse as against ideologies that could embrace irrationality, passion, and emotional.  The absence of the body from Enlightenment ideas of truth, justice, and the good doomed them.  He referred to the drumbeats of National Socialism.  

I don’t think  the throngs unquestionably embracing Trump as National Socialists or even fascists.   He appeals to them as an authoritarian leader who will “body slam” the enemies.  

Sure. “Executive strengths.”  But those strengths are strengths of a bully, not an executive.  On the other hand, Biden has shown how to get the job done, how to work the  political system. He has been able to get more laws passed than Trump. How about the executive ability to keep a cabinet members. No one resigned under Biden.But  alll of them finally resigned under Trump and most of them are now against him. And Biden is a kind man. 

But Trump makes hearts beat and people shout.  Biden does not. 

Levinas’s observations linger with me as I note the advance of authoritarianism and watch  our politics become more and more irrational.   I have no hope for us.   It’s a downward spiral.   

Dan



On Feb 10, 2024, at 4:45 PM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Whatever you want. Yes people cheer. Yes he’s enjoying it. But the people don’t support him because he’s from Wrestlemania. They support him because they believe he has executive strengths. In my opinion

Phil
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2024, at 7:07 AM, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Phil:

I suggested the Trump phenomena is an offshoot of Wrestlemania.  You said it is closer to The Apprentice.

Take a look at these videos.  And notice the cheering crowd.  

To me, Trump is closer here to how he behaves than the Trump of The Apprentice. 

Dan




______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.

______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.


--
Peter (Philippson)
[log in to unmask]
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.

______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.
______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.