Don't use my writings against me: I know them better than you! 'The swamp' is not a field description but a dehumanising dog-whistle. And those who come running to it are the dogs who have been trained to run to it. That is how 6th Jan. worked. And rather than lose everything you will follow the dog whistle, the book-banning, the establishment of a particular religion, the trashing of the constitution in the name of conservatism. Double-think. The playing of word games is over. People have died. Peter On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 at 22:19, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > OMG > I’m using YOUR analogy for the relation between a field and what emerges > from it. If you read and think about what I actually said, perhaps you > would see that I was acknowledging that the swamp is the complex adapting > system gestalt people call a field, and that it includes all of us. > > All the other stuff you said are your reasons why you inhabit the > particular region you do in that system. I find it futile to bring up > “facts” and “reasons” because the whole field has become contaminated. > Nobody has a corner on the truth. It comes down to what you believe. And > then what are we arguing about but what one person believes vs another. I > invite you and Peter to refrain from taking that to mean that I support > Trump, or anything else. > > Phil > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 3, 2024, at 2:53 PM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > Hi Dan, > > But why Phil's flatulence now? Why does he buy the definition from those > who would force Americans to be 'good Christians' in their mould? > > And notice Phil's line 'AND, I did not expect the resistance of the > established government system that helped turn the guy into the very worst > version of himself'. If you recall, the resistance was to stop Trump doing > really crazy stuff, but now those who did that are to blame for how Trump > is now. Myths in the making. > > My guess is that the fear is that this collective madness that both the > Republican Party and the religious fundamentalists (Christian, Jewish and > Moslem) have shown themselves vulnerable to, even those as kind in other > ways as Phil, will in the end bury both the Republicans and the Christian > Right. So desperation is justified. If we can just say that gender > uncertainty is as bad as insurrection, that being old like Biden is as bad > as being slightly less old and crazy, and keep on pretending that Trump had > a plan beyond staying in power, maybe we can convince people. If not, > maybe the same arguments can move the deluded into civil war. > > The joke is that what is being supported isn't even fascism. Fascists > build lots of workers' houses, made the trains run on time, invented the > Volkswagen, motorways and national parks. These want to legislate what > bathrooms people can use! > > Peter > > On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 at 21:38, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Wow. >> >> So you bought the line the “swamp.” I am shocked, not surprised. >> >> Trump has directly said he will remove from the civil service everyone he >> thinks has or will be disloyal to him. He has said he’d pardon the >> insurrectionists and other criminals found guilty by courts of law. He >> said he will direct the justice department to hunt down democrats. (By the >> way, he has no authority to do that. Just ask Wm Barr. Or read the >> constitution.) He said he’d consider ordering the military to invade >> Mexico — and into American cities. I don’t know which would be worse.... >> >> >> His claim to be a dictator for one day was not irony. I believe he lacks >> the cognitive sophistication to understand irony. Do I think he REALLY >> meant he would declare himself a dictator. Not for a minute. I heard that >> as flatulence from an autocrat. Or the preening of someone who stares in >> the mirror and tell himself he is a "stable genius” who aces cognitive >> exams. Yet who are his models? Oban. Putin. >> >> We all have lots of problems. We as a culture have devalued if not >> marginalized critical thinking and free expression of ideas. Ideologues of >> the right and the left threaten to bury us under their orthodoxies. >> >> Trumps supporters. Their cultish devotion to him is difficult to >> explain. Do a search on YouTube for “Trump” and “Wrestlemania.” You’ll >> see crowds cheering him on. >> >> I return to “swamp.” I don’t believe it exists. It is a creation of >> people who have been against the power of the federal government since the >> New Deal. Or even further back, it was a product of populist nativism that >> was anti-immigrant and anti-all-minorities. “America First”? That was a >> reaction to a sense that those in power — the swamp — want to drag us into >> wars. >> >> Swamp? It is always them and never us. >> >> Dan >> >> On Feb 3, 2024, at 1:59 PM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> As far as Maher’s observation goes, I think it is directed at the swamp. >> Let’s take it away from science. Do I think that Taylor Swift is a sinister >> agent of the left to sway voters? No. That verges on the delusional. Do I >> think that Trump means to be a dictator and will wipe out our entire >> constitutional government because he says that on day one he will be a >> dictator? No. People don’t understand his idiomatic expression and never >> have. The swamp is this split out society that did not get this way because >> of Trump; it’s been developing since at least Nixon. And Trump emerged from >> that. It’s partly a product of declining quality of education, the >> emergence of a “screen culture” where people cannot tolerate complexity and >> have no patience. Quick and simple. Text instead of email. Forced choice >> alternatives between this and that. Data driven “reality” that cannot >> understand the feel of the moment. So a complex adaptive system makes no >> sense and it must be that Trump/Biden is either all good or all bad. >> >> I have been re-evaluating a lot of things in the last few years. I was >> supportive of Trump because I thought he would be an iconoclast who could >> go to Washington and break up the stuck and dysfunctional aspects of our >> government. I was naive. I did not expect—suspect—the power of the >> resisting bureaucracy. It was not a peaceful transfer of power. It was a >> stealthy subterfuge. And that is the ground upon which Trump supporters >> have become stubbornly loyal. And now they view Trump’s legal problems as >> just more of the same. So as the indictments were brought Trump’s ratings >> went up. And that kind of narrative, whether a person believes it or not is >> part of the current split, part of the swamp. The swamp is both left and >> right. >> >> Phil >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 3, 2024, at 11:29 AM, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> Dan >> One difference. That which emerges is not identical to that from which it >> emerges. The swamp gas is not the swamp. They are indeed in a sub- and >> supervenient relationship, and so Trump emerged from and is of a complex >> adapting field, and he now exerts a downward influence over it. But the >> field is still self adapting. There is a Haley. There are more people in >> the country who will not vote for Trump than who will (no matter what). >> There is the separation of powers in the government. The system is in >> turmoil, not dead. >> >> And what I think would be wise is to examine the swamp more than the >> swamp gas. >> >> Phil >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 3, 2024, at 10:37 AM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Dan. >> >> I think there are arguments to be had about all those points, but the >> main thing is the totally dumb attempt to provide a spurious parity between >> actions that weaken the democratic and legal bonds that hold a nation >> together or that sustain our capacity to live comfortably on our planet, >> and the gender thing which only really affects those involved. >> >> Peter >> >> On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 at 16:17, Dan Bloom <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> I agree Peter. >>> >>> His emergence is of a field in which he has been a provocateur. >>> >>> We know in emergence theory that emergent events exert downward >>> non-linear “causation" on that from which they are emergent. This is a >>> sub- and supervenient relationship. >>> >>> Trump is both the swamp gas emergent of the swamp and the swamp itself. >>> :) >>> >>> I agree with Maher, by the way. Both sides deny the science that is >>> inconvenient to them. But his characterization of gender issues is >>> uninformed. Does he really know nothing about them? Seems he does. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> On Feb 3, 2024, at 10:56 AM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> No, he was the enabler, but he would have been nobody without people who >>> said 'Well he isn't presidential, but he fulfills our/God's purpose.' Now >>> who would have said that?! >>> >>> By the way, field theory doesn't say that an individual isn't very >>> powerful at times. >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> On Sat, 3 Feb 2024 at 00:26, Philip Brownell <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Ya know. He alone, all by himself pulled the entire country apart. >>>> Where is your field theory right now Peter? It’s just not that simple. >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Feb 2, 2024, at 4:50 PM, Peter Philippson <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Weasel, weasel, weasel... >>>> >>>> You are a distinterested social experimenter who supported the guy who >>>> as we predicted pulled apart the social fabric of your country IN THE NAME >>>> OF CONSERVATISM. >>>> >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024, 22:56 Philip Brownell, <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I’m not desperate Peter. Desperation not in the equation. I’m just >>>>> quoting Bill Maher as a kind of social experiment/ Rorschach test. You know >>>>> what might a person say to this? And there you are. >>>>> >>>>> Phil >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 2, 2024, at 3:48 PM, Peter Philippson < >>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You must be desperate Phil. >>>>> >>>>> On the one hand there are people trying to turn America into a fascist >>>>> theocracy, invading the seats of power and threatening to kill those they >>>>> disagree with, threatening democracy, achieving the legal a system, or >>>>> denying climate emergencies while parts of America burns. On the other hand >>>>> there are some people whose proprioceptive sense of themselves is of a >>>>> different gender to their outer physical appearance. I know, let's find a >>>>> form of weasel words that makes them as bad as each other. >>>>> >>>>> Desperate indeed! >>>>> >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024, 15:46 Philip Brownell, <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Bill Maher: "When historians look back in a hundred years, if we're >>>>>> still here, I don't think they're going to divide the country like we do >>>>>> into these two camps. They're going to say: As a *people*, they were >>>>>> obnoxious. It happens in different forms on both sides. As a people, they >>>>>> didn't believe in science. On the right, they think global warming is a >>>>>> hoax or whatever nonsense they believe about that. And on the left, they >>>>>> think men can have babies. That's what they'll say. They'll say, ‘As a >>>>>> people, they just lost their s--t.’” >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>>>>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>>>>> public archives can be found at >>>>>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>>>>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>>>>> found at the archives. >>>>> >>>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>>>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>>>> public archives can be found at >>>>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>>>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>>>> found at the archives. >>>>> >>>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>>>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>>>> public archives can be found at >>>>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>>>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>>>> found at the archives. >>>> >>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>>> public archives can be found at >>>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>>> found at the archives. >>>> >>>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>>> public archives can be found at >>>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>>> found at the archives. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Peter (Philippson) >>> [log in to unmask] >>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>> public archives can be found at >>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>> found at the archives. >>> >>> >>> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people >>> interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its >>> public archives can be found at >>> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >>> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >>> found at the archives. >> >> >> >> -- >> Peter (Philippson) >> [log in to unmask] >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. >> >> >> ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested >> in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives >> can be found at >> http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and >> subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is >> found at the archives. > > > > -- > Peter (Philippson) > [log in to unmask] > ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested > in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives > can be found at > http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and > subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is > found at the archives. > > ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested > in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives > can be found at > http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and > subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is > found at the archives. -- Peter (Philippson) [log in to unmask] ______________ Gstalt-L is an independent eCommunity of people interested in gestalt therapy theory and its various applications. Its public archives can be found at http://listserv.icors.org/scripts/wa-ICORS.exe?A0=GSTALT-L, and subscriptions can be managed by clicking on "Subscriber's Corner," which is found at the archives.