Now Burama you are sounding more sympathetic to Jammeh. Something you genuinely work so hard to avoid in your writings. Watch the lines least you risk coming across as a Jammeh defender.. That's the line the APRC folks are using. "It is passed by the parliament" Whose Parliament is it????????????????just saying. Demba On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Burama Jammeh <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Haruna > > All your points are good yet not addressing my specific point. > > The Democratic Party change rules midstream is no difference than Yahya > and/or any other dictator changing rules.Constitution/laws/standing orders > etc. Obama and the Democratic Party give reasons….so too Yahya or those > dictators give reasons for their decisions. This is no good practice > regardless to country/continent. > > I can’t reason how we think Obama’s is justified but Yahya’s not! In both > cases is corrupting democracy. > > Burama > > On Dec 4, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Haruna <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > In democratic governance, there are several branches of governance, > working in concert amid branch cordons, oft confluent. Ergo the need for > coalitions here and there. > > Constitutions guide the concert of governance, NOT branch administrative > RULES. > > There is NO other branch of governance in Gambia save for the executive. > > In the US, the executive branch is responsible for governance. > > The congress is responsible for legislation and advise & consent on the > executive's governance. > > In America, the judiciary interpretes law and provides a check on the > legislature and the executive. > > In gambia, Yahya makes, interpretes, and implements law, provides a check > on the executive, legislature, and judiciary. > > In Gambia Yahya cannot be prosecuted for his crimes. > > In America, the executive, legislature, and judiciary will, and they know > they will, be prosecuted for any crimes they commit. > > Happy holidays Burama. > > Haruna. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Burama Jammeh <[log in to unmask]> > To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Wed, Dec 4, 2013 9:28 am > Subject: Re: Democracy or Dictatorship > > Again my point is not answered. > > There is no difference Yahya changing the constitution with his > parliamentary majority to Democratic changing rules of Senate with their > majority. The end result produced what one wants rather than battling it > through the rigor of democratic processes. > > On the question of election verdict in America. This is exactly my > point. Those Republican were equally elected by those who elected Obama but > for a different role. Hence they’re no obstructionists and voters will have > another crack to vote them out if they disapprove their performance. That’s > the system and every American president faces it in some form. My point - > is undemocratic to begin to change rule midstream especially those you > vehemently argued against just few years ago. > > To end, what happen in American politics doesn’t trouble me much; but > only as it relates to the global survival of democracy. I only highlight > these issues to make a connection to Gambia and African politics by > extension. That is if a mature democracy like America will resort to such > power grabbing tactics because of difficult/hostile opposition……what should > we expect of a guy like Yahya who promised to bury them 6ft below the > surface of earth. > > I understand some people’s public/private allegiance to the Democratic > Party/Obama> I also understand the preference of many on the political > positions of that party on many issues that of of direct interest to > us...….yet what is wrong is always wrong no matter who/what. > > Take a look at the videos of Obama/Biden/Hillary/Pelosi, etc in their > own words then and now. Equally take a look at Yahya’s words on unchecked > power, term limit and we will not allowed dictatorship in Gambia - > then/now. It makes you think that everyone is smitten with power > whenever/wherever possible. The differences lie on the degree at which > democratic institutions function as should. > > There is no difference if Obama as head of the ruling party corrupt > democratic checks/balances to when Yahya those one. Let me make it > clear….am not comparing the 2 by any means. My point is limited to the > current executive/congress relationship and the recent changing of some > rules. > > Appreciate your views though! > > Burama > > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Haruna <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Thanks Demba, I think you explain my views a bit clearer than I did. I > think Burama's comparison of what obtains in America to what obtains in > Gambia is a bit off quilter. Rules of the Senate and or the House are > simply that - administrative guidelines for debate and pannafore. It is > interesting to note that in the House where the "minority" holds sway, no > majority topics are debated much less voted on. And of the "minority" bills > that are deliberated on and passed, none of them is of any constitutional > consequence. E.g. - What to name a House building, state community > cul-de-sac, or how to rename a bill passed a century ago, or get this: how > to plan to repeal National Healthcare Law!!!!!! > > Best wishes for the holidays to both of you. Gentlemen all. > > Haruna. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Demba Baldeh <[log in to unmask]> > To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 2:48 pm > Subject: Re: Democracy or Dictatorship > > Thanks Haruna. I can't agree with you more on your majority/minority > cooperation to work together. One good turn deserves another... If you are > in majority office today you are certain to be in the minority down the > road. So it makes perfect sense and fulfill the principles of democracy to > allow a majority to legislate with the cooperation of the minority. > Democracy is defeated when Minority seek to block anything and I mean > anything the majority wants to do. It is ironical that they try to impose > their will on the people while discarding the will of the majority. > > As for Burama's position, I am in agreement with you. Just because no > one has yet to come up with a solution to remove Yahya in power does not > negate the efforts being made. Every Gambian is being challenged to come up > with ideas and or solutions to change the system. Since Yahya is not > capable of changing and will not compromise on anything other than his way, > we have limited options but to force change. I know that we can't wait for > another 20 years while we try to build democratic movements in the > Diaspora. It is simply putting the cart before the horse. > > I encourage the conversation though and hope we can find a solution > sooner rather than later. > > Thanks > > Demba > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:29 AM, Haruna <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Demba and Burama, >> >> While I am sympathetic to your two views: Majority Rule and Consensus Rule >> >> It appears the two views are at loggerheads as is to be expected. Without >> commenting on what Democracy is at this time (my book, coming soon, >> DEMOCRATICA - A Lifestyle Synthesis shares a definition for democracy), the >> two views of Majority Rule and Consensus Rule provide a recipe for for >> impasse, acrimony, and obstructionism particularly among African polity. >> >> For effective and efficient governance, there is a happy medium luckily. >> This happy medium is so because in elections, we cannot readily discern the >> motivations or desires of our fellows for governance. (I shy away from the >> word rule because it connotes tyranny). So after the "Majority" wins an >> election, they will still need a sizable majority of the minority for any >> meaningful and effective governance. It will therefore be imperative to not >> only include members from the minority in governance cabinets, it is >> crucial to constantly reach out to the minority for their participation in >> policy conferences and development. What I am sharing is the value of >> coalition-making around issues rather than belonging to particular >> political parties that vied in the election. It is to be expected that the >> victorious party will form the majority of office-holders but great effort >> must be made to include members of minority parties who share similar >> visions for the nation or community. When this is done, governance by >> coalitions around pertinent issues for the people becomes effortless. >> >> Furthermore, and after elections, the people must always be encouraged to >> participate in their own governance. Decentralized policy meetings, >> debates, conferences, workshops, etc., will go a long way to achieving that >> goal. >> >> I must share here that Burama's idea of having a prospective governance >> mechanism or government in place before we remove Yahya is both >> unproductive ad ill-advised. It will lead to political encampment and an >> air of elitism that will only invite counter-coups. That was what plagued >> for a long time, and continues to plague Nigeria and Liberia. One person's >> objections must never be allowed to scupper national governance either. >> >> Thank you both for your indulgence. >> >> Haruna. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dbaldeh <[log in to unmask]> >> To: GAMBIA-L <[log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 4:32 am >> Subject: Re: Democracy or Dictatorship >> >> Interesting Burama. So in your case here election of a president is >> meaningless. They cannot govern because the minority party does not like >> him or his policies. >> >> I tell you what is an obstruction. It is when an idea can be passed >> into law by the majority and one person block it. It is when your party >> come up with an idea, it is accepted by the opposing party and you now >> oppose it because you don't like the president. It is opposing things you >> supported when your party was in power and now you oppose. >> >> Democracy is about majority rule right. Then let the winner of the >> elections govern. >> >> Thanks >> Demba >> >> >> From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Burama FL Jammeh <[log in to unmask]> >> Date: 12/02/2013 3:27 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: [G_L] Democracy or Dictatorship >> >> >> Active National Assembly/'Obstructionists' National Assembly vs Rubber >> Stamping National Assembly! >> >> The excuse and political low blow in America today. When a politician did >> not get his/her way, s/he blamed the other as obstructionist....as if that >> person is not elected representative of the people >> >> No wonder African leaders such as Yahya Jammeh, override our >> representatives and/or ask them to stamp his will at will, where there >> exist no functioning institutions of democracy. >> >> Where America's political class is everyday looking for ways to by-pass >> democratic checks.....one should be very suspicious of anybody in or vying >> for power. >> >> It appear when people assume power they ran out of sanity before their >> back hit the backrest of the chair. >> >> As Senator Obama argued vehemently Republican treat to do-away with 225 >> year Senate Super Majority Rule (60 votes) used for many confirmations and >> legislature. Two weeks ago his party did just that for judicial >> confirmations (excluding supreme court) with his endorsement........they >> claimed because Republican legislature are obstructionists. >> >> Amazing to see Obama, Baden, Hilary, Pelosi and Reid on video in 2006/7 >> arguing against what they supported toady. Uncheck power mixed with human >> nature is toxic >> >> I have no reason to root for either party......but this time the party in >> power has thrown a fundamental (voice of the minority) of democracy under >> the bus. >> >> Some of these actions of man made me reason we should not put our >> struggle on the back of any one person.....The end result of such effort >> will produce another tyranny. >> >> The answer is the majority of our people has to have a requisite capacity >> to live a life of democracy. Some of these changes are possible in today's >> America because such human capacity is low mainly through complacency of >> citizens. >> >> My thoughts! >> >> Burama >> >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >> To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L >> Web interface >> at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html >> >> To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: >> http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l >> To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: >> [log in to unmask] >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To >> unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web >> interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html >> To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: >> http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact >> the List Management, please send an e-mail to: >> [log in to unmask]¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To >> unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web >> interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html >> To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: >> http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact >> the List Management, please send an e-mail to: >> [log in to unmask]¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ >> > > > > -- > *"Be the change you want to see in the World"* > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To > unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web > interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the > List Management, please send an e-mail to: > [log in to unmask]¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To > unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web > interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the > List Management, please send an e-mail to: > [log in to unmask]¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To > unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web > interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the > List Management, please send an e-mail to: > [log in to unmask]¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To > unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web > interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the > List Management, please send an e-mail to: > [log in to unmask]¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To > unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web > interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html > > To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: > http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the > List Management, please send an e-mail to: > [log in to unmask]¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ > -- *"Be the change you want to see in the World"* ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤