Camille, I agree entirely though a part of my point is that some of the yada yada also better be there. I get calls once or twice a week asking to review reports from other labs where there is nothing but interpretation with no indication of the technical data and assumptions that led to that interpretation (preservation related jobs and otherwise). I usually have to respond with a long list of questions instead of answers and the resulting "reply to all, back and forth emailignancy" is a huge waste of everyone's time. I like to separate my reports into objective data sections (admittedly brutal to read) and interpretive sections (hopefully fitting the bill for the first part of your reply). For example, I will provide small print below my material proportions estimates that I fully expect 98% of my clients will not or cannot follow (the small print is an indication to ignore it). However, it allows them to pass the report on to another lab so that my technical assumptions and data may be meaningfully criticized. I believe anyone contracted to write a professional report has an ethical obligation to produce it in such a way that it is transparent to scrutiny by another expert even if the data may be a bit opaque to the purchaser. Furthermore, one should also assume that the report and the manilla folder that contains the original paperwork might outlive the author. John _____ From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bowman, Camille Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:06 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [BP] oh boy will you be stucco Can you read the report? Does it make any sense to you? If it's all technical with no explanation of age, history, changing technology (and how the mortar sample shows changing technology), then your lab is probably just that -- a lab with no understanding of history, evolution of materials and therefore, how different materials change or age and they have no ability to help you figure out what to use to match or replace. This is what "conservation" is all about -- an understanding of materials, their evolution, their weathering abilities, what causes them to deteriorate and what to do about that deterioration. Therefore, ask a conservator if you dont know or cant decipher a report. They'll help you and will be glad to. I realize there arent too many down in MS b/c as you know I was in AL where not only were there no conservators but there were no architects that would dare ask a conservator b//c they already had all the answers. I digress. Some can write reports that you can read. There are those labs (or individuals) that can do that. I know an architect in Raleigh that can actually do mortar and paint analyses (primarily b/c he went to Columbia and learned to do those things before he worked for the SHPO office and then went to architecture school). There are people that are trained in conservation that can help...and who can write reports. But a good quick test of the report is whether or not it makes sense to you. If it doesnt, then the person probably does not understand the material, it's development over time, its deterioration over time, and what to do about those issues. I've seen some paint analyses recently that werent worth the paper they were printed on. They're all technical, spectro...yada yada yada... results, and that had nothing to do with what color the county maintenance department should match to when it's time to paint the county courthouse. And this report came out of a famous bunch of folks that I'd best not name or I'd lose my job. Get a report that you can read and understand. Otherwise, it's not worth paying for. As John Walsh recommends, you should get samples from several people/firms/labs and then you can figure out whether or not the firm can help you or not. Camille Agricola Bowman Easement Technical Advisor Tidewater Region Preservation Office Department of Historic Resources 14415 Old Courthouse Way Newport News, Virginia 23608 Tel: 757-503-1549 (NOTE: New Number) Fax: 757-886-2808 _____ From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Walsh Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:37 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [BP] oh boy will you be stucco "We can look at a masons work to see if its good how in the hell can I look at a lab 's work and see if its good " Py, I'll give a quick answer. I think judging a mason and a lab are really not that different. 1) Instead of just asking for a mortar analysis decide what kind of questions you have. Ask all of those things you mentioned (e.g.; can you identify hot-mixed tabby and bull's blood?). If two labs answer your questions differently than challenge them on each other's answers. 2) Ask for a sample report from a few labs. Compare the quality and decide who gives you the level of information you're looking for. I'm always ready to provide a sample of our work and even volunteer it when I hear the potential client is uncertain about what they're purchasing. 3) Look for transparency. If the report says the mortar is a portland lime with a 1 : 2 : 8 ratio, look to see if they explain how they determined it was a portland lime and what calculations they used to come up with the ratio. Answers shouldn't magically appear without supporting information. You're paying for the analysis and you have a right to know what you're paying for. It may sound like mumbo-jumbo to the general reader but it makes the lab accountable as their work can always be checked by another lab. Granted it ain't foolproof but neither is choosing a mason no matter how good his mock-up looks. As for the cesspool, I'm usually asked to put on my waders and ferret out the masonry cement jockeys once their mortar starts falling out of the joints. John _____ From: The listserv where the buildings do the talking [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:56 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [BP] oh boy will you be stucco " Over here I can get you a cheap little stucco ....and oh boy will you be stuck-o" Groucho to cheeko while selling Fla real estate in Coconuts 1929 If you don't want to drop the big bucks get John Ashursts book "cements and Plasters "Donhead publishing or British Heritage very nice; simple ; more for repairs of historic British plaster but sometimes its just the knowledge that people are looking for Lab debate many thanks for the lab information; upon further questioning the architect just wanted something on paper for his file for a 1920s university campus building and those of us in the field always think lab tests are fairly simple affairs but in reality it appears from our interaction here that there is a lot that gets overlooked; thrown out, or just swept under the rug ...... I know for example that unless you know what to look for natural cement will never be identified as such .....nes pas ? I know many labs won't recognize or comment on the setting properties of 19th cent brick dust; or sharp red sands with high Fe content then there comes the question of the lime and how reactive it is? Tabby for instance was poured "Hot " how do we know that ? or plaster had bulls blood ;or stucco mixes urine or manure for that matter I would imagine for instance on a project like Jefferson Davis 19 cent beach house and libray here on the Mississippi coast (Beauvoir) severly damaged by Katrina all this is very important science; How does the state or the owner know what lab will give him accurate evaluations? If we only get wet analysis it not suspect? We can look at a masons work to see if its good how in the hell can I look at a lab 's work and see if its good " Is it just track record? Sometimes I think (like my architect)all anybody wants is the paper and letterhead to give mouth service to the owner But the problem is deeper than that Believe it or not I have also seen big (but not necessarily historic) General contractors go out of their way to frustrate architects who have little or no experience let alone patience with historic materials ignore the lab results and accept "As equal" to put up what they please. I don't know if this flim flam happens with wood; I know it happens to windows and mortar "but down heah "its a problem now that the restoration market is being flooded by out of work contractors who have remolded homes and call it restoration and the state guidelines for protecting such projects and the craftsmen who traditionally work on them are vague so what happens is everybody gets thrown into the cesspool of quasi qualified low bidders to fight it out I rest my case ..now if it pleases the court I will go out and bounce with p'nut on the trampoline Py ************** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=htt p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=Dec emailfooterNO62) -- To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html -- To terminate puerile preservation prattling among pals and the uncoffee-ed, or to change your settings, go to: <http://listserv.icors.org/archives/bullamanka-pinheads.html>