Evian, I see you're groping for examples to avoid being an upstanding fellow citizen. What I wanna know is how come you don't share these nice stories with me? I got jealous when you shared it with Laye and not me. Or is that your way of changing the subject??? [I will now share with you a story: Sometime in June this year, an international Accounting, Auditing & Consulting firm, one of the big four in the world which has a presence in the Gambia donated some goodies to the Campama Psychiatric hospital a State-operated facility in the Gambia with no ulterior motive of seeking unfair advantage over their competitors and with no strings whatsoever attached. Unfortunately according to Haruna’s twisted reasoning, that donation equals to encouraging corruption and bribery of the Government. I consider that Senator McCain's reasoning.] Evian. June 2008. International Accounting firm, one of the big four in the world. 1. Evian you mind sharing with us which accounting firm of global dimension with a presence in Gambia "donated" goodies to Campama? It may be either KPMG, Deloitte & Touche, or other but I don't want to pre-empt your answer. 2. How did they complete this here "donation" to Campama? 3. What were the goodies? I hope you're not gonna tell us candy. Al-haakumu, Ttakaathuru. Hattaa thur-tumul-makaabira. Kallaa sawfa Ta'Alamoona. Thumma Kallaa sawfa Ta'Alamoona. Kallaa Law Ta'Alamoona, Elmal-yakeeni. Latarawunna-L-Jaheema. Thumma Latarawunnahaa, Aina-L-yackeeni. Thumma Latus-Alunna, yawma-Ethinn, Ani-Nna-Eeemi. I vill be vaiting forrrrr yew. Haruna. Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:58:51 +0000From: [log in to unmask]: Re: Corporate citizenship or just part of doing business?To: [log in to unmask] Bailo, “If I may.” Certainly you may, your points of view will be enriching. “The notion of "development partnership" between Government and private citizens (including for-profit organizations) has been in my opinion, grossly misinterpreted.” (Abdoulie) I agree. The potential for misinterpretation may arise in most circumstances. “I see you're falling in the same trap of a flawed concept.” Can’t you see it’s Haruna who has already fallen into the “trap of a flawed concept”. I bet you will help me from falling into it too. “When it comes to being a corporate citizen, there is no more partnership in development than being able to make a decent profit, expand your business and hire more employees; pay taxes and inprove the welfare of society at-large. This is the inherent partnership any for-profit organization has with the government and the people. It does not have to interpreted any other way.” (Abdoulie) I doubt if the right concept could be more succinctly stated as you did above. I completely agree. “When he wants sponsorship for his Galla Dinners, he calls for "development partnership" and specifically warn those who do not "donate." (Abdoulie) As far as I am concern, threats in order to acquire donations are not only unacceptable but also crude, uncivlised behavior and a sign of tyranny and to have come from the President makes it even more reprehensible. “ Businesses can always expouse philanthrophy but not by making it a necessity for survival.” (Abdoulie) That’s it. You have shattered the bone. I will now share with you a story: Sometime in June this year, an international Accounting, Auditing & Consulting firm, one of the big four in the world which has a presence in the Gambia donated some goodies to the Campama Psychiatric hospital a State-operated facility in the Gambia with no ulterior motive of seeking unfair advantage over their competitors and with no strings whatsoever attached. Unfortunately according to Haruna’s twisted reasoning, that donation equals to encouraging corruption and bribery of the Government. I consider that Senator McCain's reasoning. You mentioned about a trap, I will share with you my perspective about a trap which a minority of mostly well-intentioned Gambians have unwittingly been drawn into. The current political dispensation promotes the fallacy of Yahya Jammeh being synonymous with the Gambian Government. Now instead of the Government of the Gambia sponsoring projects A, B or C, it is Yahya Jammeh that is announced to have done so. Don’t we Gambians know that Yahya Jammeh is filthy rich only because of the Gambian Presidency? Yes. Wasn’t he a pauper before that? Yes. So therefore if Yahya Jammeh is said to have sponsored for instance our national football team, the Scorpions, does it therefore mean that Gambians who are diametrically and justifiably opposed to the regime should not support our national football team, the Scorpions? Does it also mean that Africell GSM operator and other private businesses that are sponsoring our national football team are by implication guilty of corruption and in cahoots with the APRC government? No and a big NO. By all measures, the Gambian State is far bigger and richer than the Gambian Government and the President. The interests of the Gambian masses must come first. Hence Gambians and others should encourage anyone who could honestly make a positive difference to the quality of life of Gambians to do so regardless of the deplorable human rights violations of the APRC Government. The benefits of recognition and prestige that would inevitably come from genuine philanthropic acts cannot be denied to the selfless individuals or their organizations giving or sharing their endowments with others. Thanks for your perspective. Best wishes, Bailo On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:11 AM, Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Not so fast Evian. It appears to me you like to disagree just because you can regardless of the merits of the idea. Even when there is important policy matter being discussed. Pretty soon you're gonna tell me we have to disagree without being disagreeable. Well I'm not gonna be disagreeable my Evian because I feel good generally. But I will try to find out why you support Global properties' attempts at coercion and bribery. [Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:22:07 +0000. From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Corporate citizenship or just part of doing business? To: [log in to unmask] Haruna, Thanks for further clarifying your stance on this matter. Your poion is thoroughly clear to me although I still maintain an alternative perspective on the matter.] Evian. I understand you can hold an alternative perspective on matters, but if you're my friend and fellow citizen who Global Properties aimed to be charitable to, then you may not hold an alternative perspective just for the evian of it. Now then [I believe that as one would encourage any government to fund development projects such as hospitals and schools,] Evian. Which one encourages a government to fund development projects such as hospitals and schools? Let me share with you my position on governments: The purpose of government is to do the peoples' business in an orderly manner according to a common constitution. A hospital is constructed from the tax pool of the citizens and from generous assistance from NPO's and friendly people of other governments. A government that needs encouragement to fund a hospital, ESPECIALLY a teaching hospital, is verily delinquent and ought to be abandoned, and at least not encouraged in delinquency. What is the value of a hospital you may ask. Well injury and disease in a nation contributes to lethargy, malignancy, and contagion. Therefore because the citizens have agreed to pay into a pool of funds and assisted by NPO's and friendly people of other governments, the government of Gambia MUST (no begging, no coercion, no bribing) figure out a way to ameliorate citizen injury and dis-ease. You encourage good work and task completion. You do not encourage graft and graffignette Evian. I know you know this. The development aspect of RVTH is research into health and the training of healthcare providers. That is all part of the responsibilities of the Secretary of State for Health. [so should private companies not be discouraged from financing similar projects.] Evian. Private companies are not discouraged from assisting where they can in any public project. The question here Evian is, How does a private for-profit company assist the people of Gambia? I will bring your attention to a story you shared with us some weeks back: You had shared with us that a certain bird-watching station belonging to a friend of yours that had been torched in an arson effort by the TDA. The TDA is a government department. Should a private bird-watching company attempt to donate a bigger/shinier bird-watching station to the TDA at the location of your fellow citizen's torched station???????? In addition Evian, you, Kukeh, and Haruna, all share similar disdain for private citizens and companies to be intimidated into "donating" to government at the risk of life and property. Do you not therefore think Global properties by renovating wards 6&7 at RVTH is, if unawares, endorsing that same intimidation of their competition and other fellow citizens????? Enquiring minds want to know. [We ought to remember that we the people are the greatest beneficiaries from such improvements.] Evian. So if Evian robbed a fellow citizen of his/her motorbike and then gifts such motorbike to his friend Haruna, therefore, Haruna must encourage Evian's Robin Hood escapades. How does that rehabilitate Evian himself to become an upstanding fellow citizen of Haruna. Sooner or later, Evian is likely to steal from Haruna to gift to Kukeh. And the cycle of graft and graffignette by Evian continues unabated. [Hence, it must be good.] Evian. Evian's activities must be good because Haruna is a beneficiary of those activites. [I think you will better appreciate my point of view on this issue when you focus more on the benefits of such development interventions to the people than their impact on the Government.] Evian. I did. There were no benefits in this instance. As Baa-Rock is wont to quip, Lipstick on a pig is still a shinier pig. Besides you reminded me that the government is also part of the people. Or do you still believe that? If you have a wheelchair to donate Evian, please do not donate it to RVTH. Look for a fellow citizen who needs it and give it to him or her. Li-Llaahi warasool. No interviews, no parading on TV. No shiny stuff. And the wheel chair better not be made of straw. [This kind of development partnership involving public and private sector operatives does not in any way absolve government from discharging its development responsibilities to the peoples.] Evian. Thank you very much Evian. It should not also encourage government's graft and graffignette and turning the corner on their delinquencies. You are a beautiful man Bailo. [I like you too! Best wishes, Bailo] Evian. Well prove it ga-ddamit. Haruna. And another thing, if I go to RVTH to die, it wouldn't make any difference to me whether I expire in a refurbished or old corner. They are all disease-infested. Hell the smell of fresh paint might quicken my demise. Whaddaya think? Renovate my arse. What about disinfecting the wards by Global Enterprises? You guys are too funny. MQJGDT. Darbo. You will be here telling us about another friend of yours who lost his/her business because of absence at APRC Rallies. And I just remmembered; Do you remmember when you shared with us the plight of Mr. Bojang our friend? Well two days later, the TDA donated scrap to the Jammeh Foundation Hospital. I think it was linen and paper napkins. Any questions Evian???????????????????????????????/ --- On Mon, 17/11/08, Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]>Subject: Re: Corporate citizenship or just part of doing business?To: [log in to unmask]: Monday, 17 November, 2008, 4:07 PM Thanx Bailo for sharing more of your disposition. In order to focus the conversation better, I will use your notes to see if we can come to terms. [Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:11:30 +0000, From: [log in to unmask], Subject: Re: Corporate citizenship or just part of doing business?, To: [log in to unmask] Haruna, I believe we (Dr. Jaiteh, Haruna and myself) are all in agreement that philanthropy is good and unduely putting pressure upon companies to go the extra mile in exhibiting good corporate citizenship is bad.] Bailo. Indeed Bailo, we and most of our fellow citizens are in agreement on this. Thank you for ferreting it out so succinctly. "I still consider a philanthropic project such as the renovation of Wards 6 and 7 of RVTH, a publicly-funded hospital undertaken by Global Properties as both highly desirable and to be encouraged." Evian. This I believe is where we disagree. Renovation, underwritten by any person or entity, of wards at any hospital that is publicly-funded is philanthropic. The fundamental question is whether it is proper for a For-Profit entity like Global Properties to donate 'in cash or kind' to a publicly-funded hospital like RVTH? I believe that is both highly undesirable and ought not be encouraged. Here are some of my reasons: 1. The management and governing board of RVTH is not constituted according to the constitution. I am confident you understand what I mean by that. 2. Out of the taxes paid by for-profit businesses, including Global Properties, a budget is drawn for the running of RVTH. To further augment that budget, a discount is given to NPOs with the expectation that all other philanthropy, including that of NGOs and foreign governments, can assist RVTH in better serving the citizens of Gambia and guests of Gambia. 3. We have seen and are aware of untold harrassment of businesses and persons in Gambia for not donating "in cash or kind" to illegally constituted outfits to include the Jammeh Foundation, Kanilai farms, APRC, RVTH, TDA, YDE, etc. Why does GLobal Properties feel obliged to donate to government in kind? I think that if they desire to be good corporate citizens, Global Properties ought to channel their philanthropy through a Health NGO in Gambia or if there is no health NGO in Gambia, they ought to set up an NGO, through which they conduct their philanthropy, for propriety's sakes. 4. Because Global Properties cannot ascertain the good running of RVTH and they have no say in its day-to-day management, and because of the climate of fear in Gambia (I refer you to AI's recent report: Fear Rules in Gambia), Global Properties is justifying Yahya's contention that all businesses and persons in Gambia are obliged to donate to government in cash or kind. [To my mind, this kind of development interventions by operatives from the private business siector tantamounts to a direct commendable support to the Gambian public.] Evian. I understand your desire for "development interventions by operatives" Evian, but how does renovating wards 6&7 of RVTH tantamount to direct support to the Gambian Public, nevermind commendable? consider this: Might it not be more direct and commendable if Global Properties were to build a wing at SOS children's villages, or purchase medications or hospital equipment or wheelchairs through WHO or another health NGO and designate it for RVTH? That philanthropy can be disseminated by all news outlets (not just the DO) and the marketing manager of Global Properties cann afford interviews to all newspaper outlets. They might even have their name on the SOS wing and since they are in the business of Property development and sales, what better advertisement than that Evian? I want you to consider the unintended consequences of this Fosse philanthropy by Global Properties Evian and I hope you will reconsider your position. [Mind you, Global Properties funded the renovation of a hospital and did not make a donation in cash or kind as you suggested.] Evian. Renovating a wing or two of RVTH by Global Properties tantamounts exactly to an in-kind bribe. Forget donation. [OK, if you still consider it a donation, then it is the kind of donation that will directly benfit the Gambian population.] Evian. How does that help the Gambian population? It certainly does not reduce the fees paid for NO SERVICE at RVTH. It will however continue the mirage of "treating" tortured and illegally detained prisoners of Mile II. WHen was the last time you went to RVTH Evian? [There could be nothing wrong for private interests to donate in cash or kind to any deserving government institution as long as the necessary safeguards against corruption are in place.] Evian. Evian you're so funny you don't even know you're funny. Read your comment immediately above. Again. Again. Do the words "DESERVING", "GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION", "NECESSARY SAFEGUARDS AGAINST CORRUPTION", jump out and grab you by the ears? WHat I'm wondering is why you feel the need to qualify your earlier blanket endorsement of Global properties donating in cash or kind and directly to the government of Gambia. You are now getting closer to Kukeh and my position therefore. Our problem is that Yahya intimidates businesses into donating to his many outfits at the risk of near-bankruptcy or closure of the businesses. There are no necessary safeguards against corruption, and RVTH is not a government institution in reality. Therefore, the current Gambia government is not deserving aiding and abetting to lead to the inevitable demise of Global Properties' competition and other businesses. I think we are in sync now. Although I'm never sure about you Evian. [Please note that the political leadership of a nations does not entirely make up the government.] Evian. NOOOOOOOO! I think the kindergatteners at Ndow's school know this Evian. What're you talking about? [In the equation are ordinary people too , regardless of how marginalised or not they are.] Evian. NOOOOOOOO! You can't be serious. I'm not so sure you're not neglecting the coefficients, equivalents, and variables of the equation Evian. Prove it men. The variables are the ordinary people, all unique. The coefficients are Global Properties' competitors in the real-estate market in Gambia and other FOr-Profit businesses, the Equivalents are "Deserving government institutions". Just pause for a minute, it'll dawn on you. I can't friggin help make fun of you if I tried Evian. Forgive me for that but I'm dead serious here. [That's why I don't subscribe to sanctions such as the one imposed on the Iraqis under Saddam or currently on the Gaza Strip under Hamas. You get my rationale?] Evian. NO I DON'T GET IT EVIAN. I think Kukeh was talking about Private concerns being intimidated/coerced/brow-beat into donating in cash or kind to Yahya Jammeh and his various outfits. How Gaza, Kirkut, Saddam, and Hamas feature in that beats the Jahannama outta me. FYI, I don't believe the GAZA strip under Hamas or the Iraquis under Saddam deserve any sanctions. Let's focus Evian. You frustrate me sometimes but I love you to death. Haruna. --- On Sun, 16/11/08, Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Haruna Darbo <[log in to unmask]>Subject: Re: Corporate citizenship or just part of doing business?To: [log in to unmask]: Sunday, 16 November, 2008, 4:46 PM Evian, I don't agree with your disposition here vis: For-profit enterprises donating to delinquent governments. Here, the for-profit enterprise is Global properties and the delinquent government being that of Gambia. See if you agree/disagree with that so far. Secondly, corporate citizenship DOES NOT mean donating to a government in cash or in kind. The latter is Bribery and fostering corruption especially to a government that is unaccountable to the "citizenship". In order to expound on this friggin philosophy, I share that the citizenship in "corporate citizenship" refers to the citizens of the corporate's endroit of operation. I want you to also remmember that the disdain is not as to the friggin person of the proprietor of Global Properties. That would be a narrow interpretation. It doesn't matter if GLobal properties is a corporation or sole proprietorship and it doesn't matter who the proprietor is. It could be the angel Gabriel. Evian, you shared that "On the other hand, there are some foreign investors in the Gambia whose sole motives are to maximise their profits through cheap Gambian labour and substantial tax-break incentives while hardly giving back a butut to our local communities." Do you now see your quandry? The emphasis ought not be on "Foreign" or "Local" when it comes to corporate citizenship. One of the reasons is that you may be found wanting in your determination of which corporate is Local or Foreign. All for-profit businesses are premised on maximizing profit. As far as philanthropy is concerned, there is a legal entity called NPO (Non-Profit Organisation). This entity gives back to the citizenry by taking advantage of tax-shelters and clauses afforded by governments so that private individuals and NGO's can be enabled to fill the void of government delinquency and shortcomings. For-profit businesses are under no obligation to donate to government in cash or kind. The taxes they pay are their contribution to governance. Now if you have some for-profit business feigning to "donate" to government, you set up the very unsustainable "coercion" of other for-profits to believe they must "donate" to government that Kukeh and any sane citizen is averse to. So in other words Evian, the idea behind for-profits NOT "DONATING" to government is a sound public policy that puts a check on further government delinquency. That means NOT aiding and abetting delinquency. Evian I know we Africans have a soft spot for donations and philanthropy, but it is wise to distinguish between donations and bribes. All for-profit businesses in Gambia are good corporate citizens as long as they can operate without fear of government reprisals and as long as they pay their due taxes. They can channel their philanthropy through legal NPO's but not directly to government departments such as RVTH. These were my discernments. I understand your intent to encourage "giving back" to the community but your method here is counterproductive. And for someone who cherishes good governance, I think you should reconsider your position here. And just because they have a local or foreign name attacched to their principals is not the determinant of being foreign or local businesses. That is a legal discernment. I join you in commending GLobal properties for their assistance in Youth development and I hope they do that through a legitimate NPO without desiring publicity for it. The media secretary for Global properties is best advised to focus on marketing good products and services of Global properties. Not the "philanthropy" of Global Properties. Evian I hope you view this as a cautionary note and not antagonistic as you're wont to perceive or I will not be pleased with you. I also encourage you to share your disagreements on the ideas shared so that we can yield more value in further discernments. Thanx for sharing your thoughtsYour brother,Haruna. Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:47:09 +0000From: [log in to unmask]: Re: Corporate citizenship or just part of doing business?To: [log in to unmask] Dr. Jaiteh, I believe the good Corporate citizenship being demonstrated by Global Properties should be emulated by other private companies in the Gambian market. The proprietor of Global Properties is a young dynamic Gambian who is also actively involved in sponsoring the advancement of youth development in his locality. On the other hand, there are some foreign investors in the Gambia whose sole motives are to maximise their profits through cheap Gambian labour and substantial tax-break incentives while hardly giving back a butut to our local communities. I agree with you that no business entity should be put under pressure to show good corporate citizenship (gcc). Perhaps, the best way for Government to attain gcc is to gently appeal to their conscience. Thanks for sharing the story. Bailo --- On Fri, 14/11/08, Malanding Jaiteh <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Malanding Jaiteh <[log in to unmask]>Subject: Corporate citizenship or just part of doing business?To: [log in to unmask]: Friday, 14 November, 2008, 5:06 PMIt is nothing new for private businesses to renovate hospital wards, fund scholarships, sponsor hajj and even pay for grand gala nights for the selected few. While many of these may be out of desire to be good corporate citizens, the government cannot allow businesses to feel pressured into believing that its all part of doing business in the Gambia. Malanding Jaiteh RVTH wards renovated africa <http://observer.gm/africa/news> » gambia <http://observer.gm/africa/gambia/news> <http://observer.gm/africa/gambia/article/2008/11/14/rvth-wards-renovated#> Friday, November 14, 2008 *The renovation of Wards 6 and 7 (male surgical wards) at the Royal Victoria Teaching Hospital (RVTH) by Global Properties was yesterday celebrated at a ceremony held at the Royal Victoria Teaching Hospital (RVTH) premises in Banjul.* The project illustrates the real estate company's intention to contribute to the development of the health sector in The Gambia. The refurbishment work - which took twelve months to complete - provides more facilities to the said wards such as air conditioners and sanitary facilities for both patients and staff. Speaking at the inauguration ceremony, Baboucarr Ngum, the public relations officer, RVTH, who spoke on behalf of the hospital management board, said Global Properties has taken a laudable step forward. He called on other companies and NGOs to emulate the laudable initiative. For his part, Malick Mboob, head of Media Relations of Global Properties, disclosed that as a small but growing company, they have a responsibility towards the community and the country as a whole. "Global Properties is the leader in the real estate business in The Gambia, a position we earned based on quality service delivery, professionalism and trustworthiness," he said. "I believe with the continued support of our customers and a favourable business environment, Global Properties will be in a position to fund the construction of more wards for RVTH in a few years time," he said.Modou Jallow, departmental matron, delivered the vote of thanks. Author: *by Mariatou Ngum-Saidy &Alieu Ceesay* See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life Click here ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ ���������������������������������������������������������� To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ���������������������������������������������������������� See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life Click here ���������������������������������������������������������� To unsubscribe/subscribe or view archives of postings, go to the Gambia-L Web interface at: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/gambia-l.html To Search in the Gambia-L archives, go to: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=gambia-l To contact the List Management, please send an e-mail to: [log in to unmask] ���������������������������������������������������������� Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile®. 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