You got that right John. This may not sound nice or right but I don't even like Mega churches they are just for those who want to hide. And to inpersonal. I like the small churches where they are like families. The only good thing about a huge church is all the souls that were won to Christ. -- Can you imagine what a scarcity of news there would be If everybody obeyed > the Ten Commandments? I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is IN GOD WE TRUST Karen Carter '74 -KC- Ministries -------------- Original message -------------- From: John Schwery <[log in to unmask]> > Kathy, I don't mind the churches that are small or that aren't > businesses. A lot of crazy stuff goes on in the Mega churches. > > earlier, Kathy Du Bois, wrote: > >John, > >Boy, does that make me mad!! In the mean time, our church, and Greg > >and myself, are struggling with the issue of having Greg reduced to > >part time because they can't keep up with our health insurance > >payments. Brother > >Kathy > > > > > >At 08:35 AM 8/15/2006, you wrote: > >>I didn't realize there is so much church fraud. > >> > >>Text of forwarded message follows: > >> > >>>Religion-Related Fraud Getting Worse > >>>Aug 13 11:05 PM US/Eastern > >>>http://tinyurl.com/m6qyc > >>> > >>>By RACHEL ZOLL > >>> > >>>Randall W. Harding sang in the choir at Crossroads Christian Church > >>>in Corona, Calif., and donated part of his conspicuous wealth to its > >>>ministries. In his business dealings, he underscored his faith by > >>>naming his investment firm JTL, or "Just the Lord." Pastors and > >>>churchgoers alike entrusted their money to him. > >>> > >>>By the time Harding was unmasked as a fraud, he and his partners had > >>>stolen more than $50 million from their clients, and Crossroads > >>>became yet another cautionary tale in what investigators say is a > >>>worsening problem plaguing the nation's churches. > >>> > >>>Billions of dollars has been stolen in religion-related fraud in > >>>recent years, according to the North American Securities > >>>Administrators Association, a group of state officials who work to > >>>protect investors. > >>> > >>>Between 1984 and 1989, about $450 million was stolen in religion- > >>>related scams, the association says. In its latest count _ from 1998 > >>>to 2001 _ the toll had risen to $2 billion. Rip-offs have only become > >>>more common since. > >>> > >>>"The size and the scope of the fraud is getting larger," said > >>>Patricia Struck, president of the securities association and > >>>administrator of the Wisconsin Department of Financial Institutions, > >>>Division of Securities. "The scammers are getting smarter and the > >>>investors don't ask enough questions because of the feeling that they > >>>can be safe in church." > >>> > >>>Cases in recent years show just how vulnerable religious communities are. > >>> > >>>Lambert Vander Tuig, a member of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest > >>>Calif., ran a real estate scam that bilked investors out of $50 > >>>million, the Securities and Exchange Commission says. His salesmen > >>>presented themselves as faithful Christians and distributed copies of > >>>"The Purpose Driven Life," by Saddleback pastor Rick Warren, > >>>according to the SEC. Warren and his church had no knowledge of > >>>Vander Tuig's activities, says the SEC. > >>> > >>>At Daystar Assembly of God Church in Prattville, Ala., a congregant > >>>persuaded church leaders and others to invest about $3 million in > >>>real estate a few years ago, promising some profits would go toward > >>>building a megachurch. The Daystar Assembly was swindled and lost its > >>>building. > >>> > >>>And in a dramatically broader scam, leaders of Greater Ministries > >>>International, based in Tampa, Fla., defrauded thousands of people of > >>>half a billion dollars by promising to double money on investments > >>>that ministry officials said were blessed by God. Several of the con > >>>men were sentenced in 2001 to more than a decade each in prison. > >>> > >>>"Many of these frauds are, on their face, very credible and > >>>legitimate appearing," said Randall Lee, director of the Pacific > >>>regional office of the SEC. "You really have to dig below the surface > >>>to understand what's going on." > >>> > >>>Typically, a con artist will target the pastor first, by making a > >>>generous donation and appealing to the minister's desire to expand > >>>the church or its programs, according to Joseph Borg, director of the > >>>Alabama Securities Commission, who played a key role in breaking up > >>>the Greater Ministries scam. > >>> > >>>If the pastor invests, churchgoers view it as a tacit endorsement. > >>>The con man, often promising double digit returns, will chip away at > >>>resistance among church members by suggesting they can donate part of > >>>their earnings to the congregation, Borg says. > >>> > >>>"Most folks think `I'm going to invest in some overseas deal or real > >>>estate deal and part of that money is going to the church and I get > >>>part. I don't feel like I'm guilty of greed,'" Borg says. > >>> > >>>If a skeptical church member openly questions a deal, that person is > >>>often castigated for speaking against a fellow Christian. > >>> > >>>Ole Anthony of the Trinity Foundation Inc. in Dallas, which > >>>investigates fraud and televangelism, partly blames the churches > >>>themselves for the problem. Anthony contends that the "prosperity > >>>gospel" _ which teaches that the truly faithful are rewarded with > >>>wealth in this life _ is creeping into mainstream churches. > >>> > >>>Chuck Crites, a former member of Crossroads Church, learned firsthand > >>>how effective con artists can be. > >>> > >>>The businessman was swindled out of $500,000 by Harding in a Ponzi > >>>scheme, which uses money from newer investors to pay off older ones. > >>> > >>>Crites said Harding, who pleaded guilty last year to wire fraud and > >>>money laundering, boasted about helping fund a new Christian high > >>>school for Crossroads and hired a music pastor from the megachurch as > >>>a sales agent. "At one point he even told me how much money he had > >>>given to the church that year," Crites said. > >>> > >>>Harding was nabbed with the help of Barry Minkow, who was himself > >>>convicted of fraud years ago. Minkow eventually became a pastor in > >>>San Diego and started the Fraud Discovery Institute, which is > >>>dedicated to investigating scams. > >>> > >>>Crites is putting his money toward a new fraud-awareness kit for > >>>churches and other groups that Minkow is developing. > >>> > >>>"It made me angry at how people are abusing the trust that exists in > >>>church communities," Crites said. > >>> > >>>Investigators say all denominations are at risk, but the most > >>>susceptible communities are ones where members are deeply engaged in > >>>church activities, such as service programs and small group prayer, > >>>giving con artists plenty of chance to ingratiate themselves with > >>>congregants. > >>> > >>>Often, perpetrators are so successful building an image as good > >>>Christians that churchgoers won't cooperate with law enforcement > >>>authorities even after the crime is revealed. > >>> > >>>"Money has a way of blinding objectivity, even for we who are > >>>believers," Minkow says. > >>> > >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>>__._,_.___ > >>>> FrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwNDQ5BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDEyMTY5NQRtc2dJZAMzOTQ5OQRzZW > MDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNTU2MDQyMjAEdHBjSWQDMzk0OTk->Messages > >>>in this topic (1) > >>>> 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwNDQ5BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDEyMTY5NQRtc2dJZAMzOTQ5OQRzZWMDZnRyBHN > sawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNTU2MDQyMjA-?act=reply&messageNum=39499>Reply > >>>(via web post) | > >>>> 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwNDQ5BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDEyMTY5NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1 > lAzExNTU2MDQyMjA->Start > >>>a new topic > >>>> TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwNDQ5BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDEyMTY5NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNtc2dzBHN > 0aW1lAzExNTU2MDQyMjA->Messages > >>> > >>> > >>>You are receiving Individual Emails > >>>> 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwNDQ5BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDEyMTY5NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGl > tZQMxMTU1NjA0MjIw>Change > >>>Delivery Settings > >>>> NzE0BGdycElkAzQwNDQ5BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDEyMTY5NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTE1 > NTYwNDIyMA-->Visit > >>>Your Group | Yahoo! Groups > >>>Terms of Use | > >>>Unsubscr > ibe > >>> > >>>> NzE0BGdycElkAzQwNDQ5BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDEyMTY5NQRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEx > NTU2MDQyMjA->Visit > >>>Your Group > >>>New Message Search > >>> > >>>Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the > >>>improved message search. > >>> > >>>Share feedback on the new changes to Groups > >>>. > >>> > >>>__,_._,___ > >>End of forwarded message text: > >> > >>John > > > > John