It all depends on our definition of harm, versus God's definition of harm. As in this section of the Bible, harm comes from thinking you don't need God's wisdom, that you can in essence make your own way, call the shots, ignore what you know to be the Word of God on the subject!! Not a good place to be in I would think. But I too have at times thought I could perhaps solve things a bit faster than God, seeing His word on a subject didn't mean I agreed with it. There was a time when my greatest desire was to leave a troubled marriage. I of course knew what God's answer to my request was, I had made a vow to my husband and to God, and just because things weren't going as I liked, just because at the present moment life was hard, unmanageable, I wanted out...I tried to convince myself I had every right, after all, didn't I "deserve to be happy?" you only live once, should I just have to live in a mistake! But God said...and I stayed!!! Though reluctantly, under great protest! And God honored that, even my staying under protest!!! What would have happened had I ignored God's word, I don't want to think of it. Harm, I would have said Pa cold snowy north far far away from friends and family was harm! But was it? I had no one to talk to, except my husband, and God, so both relationships grew stronger, hard-you bet, lonely, yes, was I sad, did I hurt being all alone when Ben was in the hospital for several months and I knew no one with whom I could physically talk to, no one who could give me a hug, but was it harm? No, it turned out to be a good thing, some go for marriage counseling but God sent Ben and me to Pa for a year! Whatever works!! I guess it just comes down to trusting God no matter what happens, no matter what fears come in to our minds at midnight, no matter how it looks, we haven't seen the end of the book, the end of the story of our life here on earth, we can't see the big picture. Rhonda -----Original Message----- From: The Electronic Church [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of BD Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 6:35 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Ponderment Rhonda1, Hmm I was going to address you as Rhonda P but realized that wouldn't do either haha. Anyway the Proverbs regarding safety and protection seem to deal with wisdom, and not being outright foolish to buck God's word. Those who snub him thinking they don't have to listen, he'll laugh at their calamity... I would not want to be in those shoes. But yes it is curious what exactly is he saying about being safe, no harm, shielded and etc. It is worth a longer closer look. I know many sort of flippantly say just believe and you'll be safe no harm comes to you. but I think the story may change when they find trouble, yet the word does say to be faithful and upright and blameless. I guess we are all of that by being believers. But are we too flippant about our believe as well? Do we tend to let our modern culture to shove god in the back seat? Do you think he is satisfied back there and would he give protection if we purposely shoved him back there. Perhaps we in deed would live a more safe and shielded life if we did in fact treat the word and relationship with God as our founding spiritual fathers had. Not that I agree in their tactics or belief in any way, but if you look at the dedication, the willingness, the faithfulness and boldness of the fundamentalist Muslim's creating news today, that takes believe to a much larger level than we see many times in Christianity. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not talking at all about what they do, or danger they put themselves in and the like, I'm strictly talking about the head over heals belief structure that allows nothing to get in it's way and the reverent honor given to their personage they call god. Perhaps there would indeed be a difference in what harm may be avoid compared to where, at least, I am in relationship with God. It is all very curious and worth looking more into it via other scripture. It is easy to just blow it off as a way to not get near the fact we are experiencing harm at times, and what reason that might be. but I'm the type that would just like to know, even if it hurts to know *smile*. Brad on 09:00 PM 5/2/2006, Rhonda Partain said: What do you think "live in safety" means? Is it "safe from harm" or "safe, from thinking you know all the answers and don't need God or any of his wisdom, safe, if it means safe from harm, that would bring up a lot of questions...what exactly must our relationship be to ensure we are "safe" for many go through things that can be seen as harm, cancer, accidents, many who love God and who fololow im and seek to do His will...interesting thoughts! -----Original Message----- From: The Electronic Church [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of BD Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 9:25 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Ponderment Rhonda, Hmm. Maybe not, perfectly faithful no, but not faithful at all? I don't think that is it either. I think Proverbs seen below shows were we ought to be. I wonder if we can faithfully believe in the promise given at the end of the text constantly. It does however say that we will have no need to "fear" and doesn't say we are absolved of trials, yet he does say earlier that he'll keep us safe. See below... interesting... I never really seen it that strongly before. Proverbs 1:20-33 20 Wisdom calls aloud in the street,she raises her voice in the public squares; 21 at the head of the noisy streets she cries out,in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: 22 "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? 23 If you had responded to my rebuke,I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you. 24 But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, 25 since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, 26 I in turn will laugh at your disaster;I will mock when calamity overtakes you-- 27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,when distress and trouble overwhelm you. 28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;they will look for me but will not find me. 29 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD, 30 since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke, 31 they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes. 32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,and the complacency of fools will destroy them; 33 but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm."