Brad, perhaps, I didn't say it right. I believe that all sin, past, present and future, is forgiven at the cross. earlier, Brad D, wrote: >John, > >That was my thought, salvation doesn't equate forgiveness of trespasses, >at least in this context. Therefore indeed, our lack of forgiving, >produces our trespasses to not be dealt with. Granted, scripture is >interpreted by scripture. That is verses are taken first in context, and >also flavored by the intent of other scripture and not strictly by the >printed word. However, the statement Jesus made of forgiving others or >our issues won't be forgiven, is pretty blatantly straightforward. So for >it to be true, salvation mustn't be applied in this flavor of trespass or >else it either makes Jesus a liar or other parts of scripture >contradictory. The Word is kind of like a bobsled at times. We begin our >trek down the middle of the runway, and as the Word guides us as the walls >of the bobsled chute, we are pushed in a direction and when we read >another precept that pushes back to God's will in another area, it is >again like riding the wall of another turn in the runway. The only >difference is, it is the runway, or God's Word that is actually straight, >and it is our path that zig zags about as we tend to bobble about in life. > >Brad > > >on 08:22 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said: >Brad, I believe that what our Lord said is talking about our >fellowship with him. I don't equate forgiveness with salvation. I >believe we can be saved and undealt with sin. I don't believe that >this state continues for years. Yes, it is one of those apparent >contradictions that takes study to understand. > >earlier, Brad D, wrote: > >How do we explain Jesus explanation of if we do not forgive other's >sins > >against us, he will not forgive ours? And does forgiveness equate > >salvation? Or can we be saved and yet have unforgiven sins to be dealt > >with? Curious to the apparent contradiction in scripture then. > > > >Brad > > > >on 06:06 PM 7/28/2005, John Schwery said: > >I believe that forgiveness is unconditional in that it does not break > >our relationship with God. Unconfessed sin can break our fellowship > >with Him, however. I believe that if anyone adds anything to > >salvation, then, grace is no longer grace, but works have been added, > >perverting the gospel. This doesn't mean that I believe that we can > >sin and get away with it, but sin does not break our relationship > >with Him. If it does, then, all of us are toast. Notice that in > >Psalm 51, David did not say to the Lord, restore unto me Thy > >salvation, but restore unto me, the Joy of Thy salvation. When our > >fellowship is broken with the Lord, we no longer have that peace that > >passes all understanding or the joy of the Lord. > > > >earlier, Vinny Samarco, wrote: > > >Hi Brad, > > >I am glad you brought this point up. I have heard of too many > >ministries > > >who make God out to be this spineless lovy-dovey blob that will let > >everyone > > >do anything, and require absolutely nothing from them. This is truly >a > > >perversion of the gospel. I think most > > >Christians would be totally shocked if they would ever do a complete > >study > > >on all the if's and buts in the bible. They would see that after >Jesus > > >reveals himself to us, forgives our sins, etc. there are some > >requirements > > >that The Lord requires of all his people. I'm not talking about > > >self-imposed works, I am talking about biblical requirements. > > >Vinny > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Brad D" <[log in to unmask]> > > >To: <[log in to unmask]> > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 5:50 AM > > >Subject: Conditional forgiveness?? > > > > > > > > > > "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father >will > >also > > > > forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, >neither > >will > > > > your Father forgive your trespasses."-- Matthew 6:14-15 > > > > > > > > This Jesus taught his disciples, believers, not those who opposed >his > > > > message; purpose; and existence. These words just after >instructing > >them > > > > how to pray, and continued after these verses to instruct them on > >conduct > > > > and attitudes. Despite what we've come to know as "The Lord's >Prayer" > > > > stating "and forgive us our trespass as we forgive those who >trespass > > > > against us", Jesus felt that precept needing to be blatantly noted > >after > > > > the prayer. We indeed find freedom in forgiving others, but as > >with the > > > > message of the Word, "it is not about us", it in this case is >about > >giving > > > > grace to others, just as we've received grace unto ourselves. God > >knows > > > > that we have enough trouble with that concept, that he holds our > > > > forgiveness randsome. This indeed sounds conditional to me. > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > >John > >John John