AS a blind person of 52 years who has travelled to a lot of places during my life having seen a lot of blind people over the years, I have come to realize that it is necessary to think broadly when looking at an issue of this type. Blind people like most other people go through different phases of thieir lives from being small children to being possibly much older and wiser but perhaps less mobile. Therefore, it is wise to allow that a person who is percievably only blind with good mobility skills the right to possess and use where appropriate any tool that will provide for safety and greater independance. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice L. Knuth" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Visually Impaired And Disabled Tags. I worked for several years in agencies for the blind as a social worker, = a supervisor, and a director of several social service and rehabilitation programs. I found that people who are blind vary widely in their = mobility skills for many reasons, sometimes because they are newly blind, = sometimes because they have poor orientation abilities, sometimes because of additional disabilities. Mary told you why she needs a disability tag, = and I believe her need is valid. I guess the problem is that blindness = alone is not a valid reasons for disability parking tags, but blindness and poor mobility skills is definitely a valid reason. Janice Knuth -----Original Message----- From: VICUG-L: Visually Impaired Computer Users' Group List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of david poehlman Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 9:08 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Visually Impaired And Disabled Tags. I know of several instances where quite competant people when crossing parking lots have been killed or injured not to say that those who are = not blind don't suffer similar fates from time to time, but having the = ability to park the vehicle in a position so as not to put one at risk seems to = be a viable issue. I would not presume to tell any blind person or member of society by law that they are denied a safe and independant means of = living their lives there fore, I'd encourage such legislation were it not law already in at least some places. We fought this battle and won it years = ago not because the blind are deemed helpless, but because drivers are = stupid and will run you down because they don't look where they are going = penalties not withstanding. I would not presume to deny a right to someone even = if I myself would not be affected by such lack of right. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terri Hedgpeth" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 1:16 AM Subject: Re: Visually Impaired And Disabled Tags. If I hired a driver, I'd hope they could see when I came out of the = store or maybe they shouldn't be driving! In such a case, I would, call on my = cell phone to let the driver know I'm done. And if we were both shopping separately and I needed to wait for them, then it wouldn't matter where = we parked, I'd just remember where and go back to that spot. Here in the greater Phoenix Metropolitan area, handicapped parking spaces aren't generally right next to the sidewalk of the store or mall. One still has = to cross the small road that passes through next to the store. =3D20 I = would strongly oppose such a law allowing people who are blind to have = "handicap parking." Of course as has been pointed out that's my right as a = citizen. I think special allowances have to be balanced with real and practical = need, because otherwise the price becomes to great in the message that is = conveyed to the public. Remember some accommodations are appropriate for certain groups of people with disabilities. For example, Braille is only = appropriate for people who are Blind and who read Braille. Elevators are even an accommodation for people with physical disabilities, but not for people = who are only blind or visually impaired and don't have any other disabling condition. Special accommodations are never one size fits all and = should never be applied across the board. Remember, those law-makers hear all = the supporting reasons why people who are blind need x y z, and usually such cases are presented rather strongly. So, in the case of people who are = blind needing handicap parking I'm sure they are told or left with the = impression that those people are easily disoriented, not very good at crossing = vehicle traveled passages and generally not as competent or independent as = others who aren't blind. It basically feeds their already held notion that = people who are blind are in-firmed and incapable of being independent. =3D20 = Just my opinion. Terri Hedgpeth Disability Research Specialist Cubic, iCare box 87-8909 Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-8909 (480) 727-8133 (voice) (480) 965-2751 (fax) http://cubic.asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: VICUG-L: Visually Impaired Computer Users' Group List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 7:02 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Visually Impaired And Disabled Tags. George, that is exactly my point, it wasn't my interpretation of the law. = According to Mary Blanton it wasn't the intent of the legislature to allow blind people to use these parking spaces. She had to have the law changed. You bring up some fine points, I don't typically use drivers. I am = usually with sighted friends who are doing the driving, or I walk to my local = shops independently. I agree that I would not want to be wandering around in = a busy parking lot looking for a car which I could not see. But your point just doesn't seem to be valid about the intent of the legislature to = include the blind, if that had to be ammended to the law. That is where I am = coming from. On Fri, 14 May 2004, George Cassell wrote: > Dan said ... > > "The idea behind the handicapped parking spaces > is to allow those who are "mobility impaired" better access to public=20 > places." > > That's your interpretation, Dan. But it's obviously NOT the intent of the > lawmakers who wrote the laws, and included those of us who are blind or > visually-impaired. > > If the lawmakers had intended these parking spaces to be reserved solely for > those who are,"mobility impaired," they would not have made them available > to those of us who are visually-impaired as well. > > As for what is "required" by a visually-impaired person, it is not for you > to say. If you can do without utilizing such parking spaces, then by all > means, park elsewhere. But some of us do find such parking spaces to be, > not just niceties, but necessities. For instance, I can't find our car when > it's parked somewhere out in the lower forty of a mall. I can't even see it > when I'm standing right next to it. So what am I supposed to do? Wander > aimlessly up and down the aisles of a busy parking lot, where cars are = > coming and going, and backing out of parking spaces, without even looking > where they are going, endangering life and limb? I'm not about to endanger > my life, just to be, what you may well consider to be politically correct. > My life is worth far more than some high-minded ideal. > > When we park our car in a handicapped stall, I do not have to cross against > any traffic -- we're along the sidewalk that leads into the stores we're > going to shop in. I am capable of doing much of my shopping without further > inconveniencing the driver who brought me there. And so I do. When I have > my packages, I want to be able to take them to the car that brought me, > freeing myself up to do additional shopping. > > I can't do that, if I can't find the car, and I can't find the car, if it's > parked among the hundreds, or even thousands of vehicles in a busy parking > lot. > > But as I said, anyone who doesn't want to park there, doesn't have to do so, > and nobody is going to hold a gun to their head to force them to do what > they don't want to do. All I ask, is that people leave the rest of us = > alone, and allow us to do whatever it is that we want to do, whether or not > others like it. We're perfectly legal, and entirely within our rights. And > if we're not, then we'll be cited, and brought to trial in a court of law, > and not by some kangaroo court of idealistic, yet not realistic people . > > -- George > > > VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List. > To join or leave the list, send a message to=20 > [log in to unmask] In the body of the message, simply type > "subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations. =20 > VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at=20 > http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html > > > -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: [log in to unmask] Tel: (412) 268-9081 VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List. To join or leave the list, send a message to = [log in to unmask] In the body of the message, simply type "subscribe vicug-l" or = "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations. VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide = Web at http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List. To join or leave the list, send a message to = [log in to unmask] In the body of the message, simply type "subscribe vicug-l" or = "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations. VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide = Web at http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List. To join or leave the list, send a message to = [log in to unmask] In the body of the message, simply type "subscribe vicug-l" or = "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations. VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide = Web at http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List. To join or leave the list, send a message to [log in to unmask] In the body of the message, simply type "subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations. VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List. To join or leave the list, send a message to [log in to unmask] In the body of the message, simply type "subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations. VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html