Very good and very important points.
One thing, though.  It seems some peoples in some areas, maybe those with
ancestors that first ate grains as a staple, seem to be adapted to that kind
of diet.  There ARE some people who do well on a high carb, nearly
vegetarian diet.  I'm not one of them.  I'm doing very well with meat and
vegetables.  But I think the reason that both sides of the arguments can
make their points ring true is that there are both kinds of people in our
population, so there will always be examples of people who become more
healthy when they take meat out of their diet, and substitute more whole
grains.
As for me, I am now sure that I do well with Paleo.  My ancestors must not
have included many grain eaters.

Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hilary McClure" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: amusing historical anecdote


> Amadeus, I just happened to read the chapter on ancient Egyptians in
> Eades's first book, Protein Power. It is apropos to this discussion.
> Apparently their diet was mostly coarse whole-grain bread made from
> barley and wheat, with a healthy variety of fruits and vegetables and
> olive oil, and some fish and poultry. The huge number of mummies
> available for study show widespread obesity, calcified atherosclerosis,
> and hypertension, as well as gum disease. Except for the gum disease,
> which is starch-related (either whole-grain or refined starch), these
> conditions are all related to excess insulin. Chronically elevated
> insulin can be caused by whole grains as well as by refined grains and
> sugars, according to the Eadeses. A contemporary Egyptian medical text
> found on papyrus, has a description of heart attack.
> This seems to indicate that the health problems of whole-grain-based
> diets are not just related to the antinutrients (lectins, phytates, and
> protein-mimics) and the lack of many important nutrients (proper
> proteins, taurine, b-12 and other vitamins), but also include the many
> insulin-related problems. Have you read that book, and do you have any
> well-founded disagreements with that material?
>
> regards,
> Hilary McClure
>
> Amadeus Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:18:03 -0500, Hilary McClure
<[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> Who in the middle ages was fat? Richard Lionheart? Any peasant?
> > >> Vikings? Germans? Celts? Egyptians?
> > >>
> > >King Henry the Eighth of England? Sir John Falstaff? Charles the Fat of
> > >Germany (881 A.D.)? Louis the Fat of France (circa 1100)? Humbert II
the
> > >Fat of Savoy (circa 1100)? Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's men? I think
there
> > >may have been plenty of fat people in the Middle Ages, and before that.
> > >Emperor Constantine? Other Romans?
> >
> > Well, that shape of Friar Tuck seems to be a hollywood outline.
> > But seriously. It should be hard to become fat without a supply of
isolated
> > energy or maybe a disease. Disease may be diabetes - that can be found
in
> > older ages as well, but *very* seldom, compared to our 5-8 percent of
the
> > population.
> > The isolated calories are refined flours and pure fat.
> > Both was available in the old ages, but very rare.
> > Wild game is lean and medievial cattle is rather lean.
> > Refined flours were made even in celtic times (500BC) by sieves.
> > But it was wastefull and not so plenty.
> > Some kings like those you mentioned may have gotten enough of it  to
become
> > fat.
> >
> > My point is: 99% of all the people after 3000BC to 1700AD had a diet of
very
> > predominating grains (more than 80 or 90%). Almost only whole grain.
> > And there were so few fat people.
> > Much of the times were hard (low food), but a lot of times were with
plenty
> > of food.
> > People just stopped to eat, when it was enough.
> >
> > I think that that is mainly because enough energy with whole foods
brought
> > enough of all the other necessary stuff to enable a stop.
> > Enough protein, B-Vitamins, other vitamins.
> >
> > >Venus of Willendorf?
> >
> > Among hunters and gatherers:
> > If someone (like the Venus) was *able* to eat herself fat, it was a sign
of
> > extreme success, wellbeeing, richness.
> > *that* is attractive.
> > I think i was hard to become like that, anyway.
> >
> > >I think it's easy
> > >to get fat on whole grains.
> >
> > Do you know someone?
> > I mean *only*, without the refined items?
> >
> > >A whole grain food still causes an insulin
> > >spike which makes you store away the fat, store blood sugar as fat, and
> > >not release fat from fat cells for energy use.
> >
> > If you look at the glycemic index lists, and even more the insulin score
> > you find that the original grains (rye spelt oats barley einkorn emmer)
> > aren't so bad.
> > (See http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/insulin.htm for example).
> > They have nearly all of their energy as carbohydrate, that's true.
> > So insulin is necessary to metabolize it for else than brain use.
> >
> > Insulin at first hand triggers the carbohydrate usage by muscles and all
> > body needs. Then, secondly long time storage as fat.
> > The key point is, why is so much left over to the not-very-useful
> > fat storage and no few used.
> > I think that is related to refining.
> > One thing is shure. Sugar and white flou *can* only take the second
pathway,
> > because the first (use) pathway is blocked by absence of B vitamins).
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Amadeus
>
>