On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:02:18 +1100, Dean Pistilli
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Why resort to such run-around theories as this to try and give support
>to vegetarianism and escape the reality that human beings generally
>gained dominance and success by killing prey, competitors, eating meat,
>and developing technology to do so.

First, the tuber theory doesn't have anything to do with vegetarianism.
To the opposite a good carbohydrate and fat source is *required* in the
case you want to argue for a "big" meat intake as early as homo erectus.

Then I think you are a bit overoptimistic about the options of the hominids
in the lineage of homo.
There are no arrows and bows, not even  spearheads, just wooden spears
(the "sharp sticks") for a *very* long time (billions of years).
And there are some stone tools with sharp edges which would at first enable
a hominid to cut through the *skin* of an animal.
But it's even unclear how good the wooden spear could have been cut and
sharpened without fire, just with small stone blades. Handaxes are not axes.

The locomotion of the bipedal hominids is "awkward unefficient" and slow
in it's developement. Not suited well to attack and escape.

"Humans are very slow sprinters compared to African apes and other large
mammals. The same was doubtless true of australopiths, because bipedalism
eliminates the galloping action of a quadruped. If nothing else changed,
therefore, bipedalism would have made the hominins more vulnerable to
predation than before. " (Wrangham et al)

It is therefore probable that hominids have developped in a predator
protected zone (like with oreopithecus). I think the hot daytime was this
zone for hominids.

Equipped with a high output rifle you may feel more secure in the outback
than homo erectus was in a lion ruled savannah.
I note that Australia (you post from ...COM.AU) is free of big predators
(except that late introduced dingo) and it would certainly be a different
thing to sleep in the savannah while lions circle around your camp and you
only have stones and that sharp stick.
I think fire was essential for protection against predators in the evenings.

Btw. there is good evidence that hominids did plunder animal carcasses
from cut marks at the bones and smashed bones. Since 6 billion years.
That doesn't mean that they killed the gazelle or gnu.

>Your ...
>pick some 'goodies' out of paleo lifestyle so you can feel better with
>your current belief system.

I do pick the goodies.

> SO logically, if you need to gather 5 or more different roots
>from differnt plances and times in order to get your nurtitional needs,
>how long do you think you will last in the wild for??

Look at that:
"..underground storage organs occur at higher bio-
mass in drier sites because they store food and/or water
during periods of climatic stress (Andersen 1987 ).In Tan-
zanian savanna woodland,for example,Vincent (1984 )
found densities of edible tubers averaging 40 ,000 kg per
km 2,compared with only 100 kg per km2
found by Hladik and Hladik (1990 )in a rain forest of the Central African
Republic."
and "surveys of the number of species with
edible underground storage organs yield a total of 101 for
five African savanna sites".

You think that's not enough?
Hominids can even be picky and satisfied.
Compare the 40 tons of tubers to the amount of animals available on
one sq-km. Less that 1 percent of food resource.

And for quality, look what 2600 kcal of one tuber (sweet potatoe) has
(recommendations from a 70 kg modern man):
Item              result         RDA     percent of RDA
-------------------------------------------------
Energie:         2661.5 kcal    2600.0 kcal   102
Protein:           42.5  g        55.0  g      77
PUFA:               5.2  g        10.0  g      52
Fiber:            175.0  g        30.0  g     583
Natrium:          125.0 mg      2000.0 mg       6
Kalium:         10000.0 mg      3500.0 mg     286
Magnesium:        500.0 mg       350.0 mg     143
Calcium:          750.0 mg       800.0 mg      94
Phosphor:        1125.0 mg       800.0 mg     141
Iron:              17.5 mg        12.0 mg     146
Zink:               7.0 mg        15.0 mg      47
Vit. A:         16675.0 µg      1000.0 µg    1668
Vit. E:           100.0 mg        12.0 mg     833
Folsäure:         960.0 µg       160.0 µg     600
Vit. B1:            2.5 mg         1.4 mg     179
Vit. B2:            1.4 mg         1.7 mg      81
Vit. B6:            6.3 mg         1.8 mg     347
Vit. C:           600.0 mg        75.0 mg     800

Now where are the shortfalls even with only one tuber?
Of course a mix with other edibles, tubers, nuts, vegetables and carrion
even enhance the picture.

>... whereby h.erectus ran around
>scaring wildlife with fire in order to dig up potatoes and roots, while
>simmultaneously gathering wild seeds ....

Looks like it was exactely like this. Not potatoes.

>..and roasting bark and leaves for ...

But not this, this is chimp's fallback food.

regards, Amadeus