Parts of Bruce Kleisners first post in brackets, then parts of my answers. Bruce answers me, then I again as indicated:
> "Is a juicer any worse than a microwave?"
> I think some of the real purists don't use the micro either. Have you asked them?
Bruce: I also mentioned food dehydrators, blenders, food processors, meat grinders, refrigerators, ovens, and other modern technology that many here DO use. I suspect that many here do use a microwave.
Erik: OK - I shortened the quotes. My point was, if somebody doesn't like the juicer, they probably don't use the micro either. I suspect the problem your "opponents" see is overconsumption of juice (plenty o'carbs!). It's much easier to overconsume smashed up fruit than whole ones, even if the juice is "fibre'n'all".
> "What about dried fruit, nut butters, vinegar, sea salt, fermented/pickled foods, maple syrup, and other gray areas? They say to avoid alcohol, including wine and champagne, but we can easily produce those by letting juice ferment. We don't need technology to make wine or champagne or vinegar or sea salt, do we?"
> And so we're back to the question of containers again!! ... Plainly said: all efficient fermenting requires both containers and settlement. Ditto boiling syrup. Ditto large-scale production of salt. And this is the paleo
(= hunter-gatherer) list, not some grain-free neolithic (= settlers) one!
Bruce: Show us where Cordain, Audette, or any other paleo author has said that we can't use containers or boiling.
Erik: They don't. It's actually OK to eat soup. But if you need a good container in order to prepare/store a certain foodstuff, then that foodstuff is probably not paleo, since it was probably not available in the amounts it takes to adapt to it for the time needed to adapt. See my post "What is paleo?" from last month.
Bruce: I'm not suggesting refined table salt, but UN-REFINED, UN-HEATED, SUN-DRIED SEA SALT. Barring that, we can splash some
sea water on our food.
Erik: Large-scale production of sea-salt takes TIME even in a hot climate. Time = settlement. I'm sure some salt was consumed by some paleo-men, but I'm also sure most of their sodium came from their food. And they would probably NOT just "splash" some sea-water on their food. What for?
Bruce: Then we're back to your arbitrary rule that we can't use containers.
Erik: It's arbitrary, is it now? I thought I explained pretty well why food that needs containers can't be paleo: most containers are of a neolithic origin. As I said it's OK to eat soup, but not everything that can go in a soup is paleo. See my post "What is paleo?".
Bruce: You can define "hunter-gather" as you please. Thus, you can amuse yourself with semantics.
Erik: No, you can't! A hunter/gatherer is someone who lives primarily from hunting and gathering (meat and greens), not from agriculture or pastoralism (grains and milk).
Bruce: But please answer the question: how does fermenting/boiling/drying make paleo food non-paleo?
Erik: I've never claimed that. I just think it's unnecessary to ferment and sprout. There's a lot of good stuff out there that doesn't that kind of preparation, the presence of which is doubtful to say the least before the neolithic period.
> "Some people go to an extreme of saying we shouldn't prepare food in a way that requires advanced planning or technology. They pretend that primitive people never went to the bother of preparing a feast."
> Who does? Although a paleo-feast would be on fresh produce, this isn't a raw-food list either. Let me return the question to you: why the obsession with fermentation and sprouting? Go find some vegan friends! The best and easiest way to prepare food was to steam it in a pit. Check the anthropological data!
Bruce: Cooking makes the nutrients in vegetables far more digestible and available to our bodies. Raw vegetables (and their juices) are full of toxins, poisons, irritants, enzyme inhibitors, and other anti-nutrients. Raw vegetables cause malnutrition and failure to thrive.
Erik: Hey! I said FRESH produce (as opposed to fermented/pickled) not raw. Why else would I bring up steaming in pits?
Bruce: I have no interest in veganism. So why do you accuse me of that? We have many examples of sprouting or fermenting among hunter-gatherers and wild animals. Check the data on that.
Erik: Sprouting and fermenting seems to be a favourite pastime with the vegan-crowd. Sorry if I was rude. I'm sure some sprouting is carried out by primitive people today, question is: did our ancestors? And primitive does not equate h/g, you know. Most current primitive people have also come into contact with agriculturalists.
Bruce: I do eat some unheated unfiltered apple cider vinegar.
Erik: Ah! But quite a lot of people on this list know what putting yeast into THEIR systems does, so to many among us this is another no-no.
Bruce: You can argue that it isn't paleo to eat "large amounts" of x, even though "small amounts" of x are paleo. To me, that is just subjective, theoretical, and intellectual debate.
Erik: Just the opposite is true: I hold such a line of reasoning to be bogus. I'm all with you on this.
Bruce: Cordain cites research that primitives might have eaten a moderate carb diet (30-45%). Does that discount the health benefits of a low-carb (0-15%) diet?
Erik: Nope. I'm all for low-carb. Question is why you would need sprouting/fermenting if you eat low-carb. Your carb allotment would be "eaten up" by fresh fruit and I sallad greens, I guess.
Bruce: What nature gives us may or may not be optimal, in its natural state. Cooking enhances the nutritional value of some foods, reduces it in others, and in many cases seems a toss-up. We'll always have more to learn about biochemistry and the effects of food.
Erik: I prefer cooked myself. I think it's probably often better then raw, not to mention tastier. And I'm willing to learn more! That's why I'm on this list.
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