> Why smear the cheese with butter? It's not just non-Paleo, it doesn't
> seem
> like many people would find that appetizing.
> 
> I merely used that as an example to show that fat and protein combos
> (unless
> the portions are huge) simply do not impact blood glucose the way
> purportedly
> healthy whole grains and even potentially healthy paleo fruits do.

Ah, I see what you mean, thanks. The info I found suggests that the
insulinotropic nature of casein, which is in both cheese and milk, would
also contribute to type 2 diabetes. I forgot about whey too, which has been
found to be even more insulinotropic than casein and is also in both cheese
and milk. Here are the summary points from an article that points at whey in
particular:

Different Proteins May Have Varying Insulinotropic Properties  CME
News Author: Laurie Barclay, MD
CME Author: Désirée Lie, MD, MSEd
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/494021

<<  * Milk components affecting the glucose and insulin responses include
carbohydrates and proteins. Milk carbohydrates have low GI, while the milk
proteins casein and whey may have insulinogenic properties by activating the
incretin system.
    * Milk proteins contained in the whey component (resulting in release of
the amino acids leucine, valine, isoleucine, and lysine) may be primarily
responsible for the insulinogenic properties of milk products.>>

> I stated that pure paleo meals would work so long as they are
> sufficiently
> carb controlled.  The original poster had not yet made the foray into
> paleo and
> for many, cutting grains and dairy all at the same time results in
> overeating
> nuts and fruit. ...

Yes, that's a good warning, except that carbs are apparently not the only
thing that contributes to diabetes. 

> I agree that dairy is unnecessary for human health but some people seem
> more
> genetically adapted to it.  I'm certainly not one of them but some are.

Yes, and you could say that about grains and legumes too. Gluten grains and
bovine dairy are still two of the most unhealthy food categories, in my
opinion, but you have a right to your opinion too.

> I
> think someone posted some interesting info on this before -- there a
> whole thread
> on it -- search the archives if interested.  

Yes, and some of it was from me. I have posted this info on casein and whey
before, as well as betacellulin (another problematic ingredient in certain
dairy products like cheese). There's plenty of information in the archives
that points to all dairy products being unhealthy, which is not surprising
given that Paleo diets (such as that proposed by Ray Audette which helped
inspire the original development of this forum) prohibit or severely
restrict all dairy products. We also have proponents here of
pastoral/traditional diets that do not exclude dairy, such as from the
Fallon/Enig/Price school of thought, and I welcome such diversity here. I
even welcome vegetarians if they don't mind reading posts about the benefits
of meat, fish and eggs. The readers can decide which points they find more
convincing. From a selfish perspective I probably fare better if people
disagree with me and become dairy-consuming semi-vegetarians (that leaves
more Paleo food for me :-) ).

> I have a problem with
> Cordain
> lumping the effects of milk in studies with cheese, cream and butter.

He was talking about casein, which I pointed out is found in both milk and
cheese. It was I who lumped milk in with cheese as being insulinotropic,
given that they both contain casein (I didn't discuss butter, since I don't
believe it contains significant amounts of casein or whey), so if you have a
problem it is probably with what I wrote. If I got something wrong, feel
free to point out specifically where I went off track. Diet, digestion and
related health processes are so complex that I am bound to get something
wrong at some point, and it wouldn't be the first time. 

> The
> effects can be different on insulin.  Lactose (milk sugar) is high in
> milk, but very
> low in hard cheeses.  

Yup, and again, it was the casein (and whey) I was discussing, not the
lactose. My understanding was that casein and/or whey are high in hard
cheeses. 

There are so many heated arguments about low-carb vs. high-carb and low-fat
vs. high-fat that they have become accepted as the crucial dietary
questions, when in reality there are both good carbs and bad carbs, good
fats and bad fats, good proteins and bad proteins. Bovine casein and whey
appear to be "bad" proteins for humans (but good for calves).

The evidence suggests that bovine dairy proteins are insulinotropic; that
is, they stimulate the production of insulin, possibly by triggering the
release of hormones and amino acids that then trigger the release of
insulin. In other words, one need not raise one's blood sugar to stimulate
the production of insulin. Granted, it is a new area of inquiry that needs
more research. Blood sugar has become so strongly associated with insulin
that the other insulin triggers tend to get ignored. As with most dietary
processes, it is much more complicated than the popular media makes it out
to be. 

> Bottom line is that the original poster had serious blood sugar swings
> and
> 300 blood glucose is not early type 2.

Yes, and the info I shared suggests that people with advanced type 2
diabetes like the poster should avoid dairy products because of their
insulinotropic proteins (such as whey and casein) as well as their
blood-sugar-raising carbs (such as lactose). In other words, cheese is not a
safe food for diabetics. 

My guess is that butter would be the least problematic bovine dairy product.
Interestingly, Elliot P. Joslin, a diabetic diet pioneer, apparently
prohibited milk and cheese but allowed butter. Still, I don't recommend
butter because it's not Paleo (like grains, dairy would only have been
consumed on relatively rare occasions when a hunt resulted in a kill of a
milk-laden cow and in small quantities--especially when shared with a family
or tribe) and is a processed product (Stone Agers didn't have churns) from a
food designed for infant cows, and is therefore suspect on at least three
counts. Butter also tends to be used most often with modern foods like baked
goods, potatoes, wheat pancakes, etc., and therefore could be a temptation
to stray more often if it is sitting in the fridge. With a Paleo diet I
don't find I have much use for butter, and there are better alternatives.

Of course, one should check with one's doctor (such as Dr. Bernstein or
someone with similar knowledge; unfortunately most doctor's will steer you
wrong about this stuff) and you shouldn't take what I or anyone else says as
gospel--investigate yourself so you become a wiser consumer of the health
information that your doctor puts out. Being someone who works with
physicians, I know that they aren't always right about everything. :-)

I hope I communicated what I was trying to say better this time.

Regards,
Paleo Phil