On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:25:41 -0700, Lorenzo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

As I'm a native.. I'll jump in here :-)

(Rye and Ray comes a little below)

>Years later when I studied German Literature--It was taught
>that French was the "UPPERCRUST"  Language of Europe,   Most
>Nobility spoke French; some could not  EVEN  understand the
>language of the people they ruled!

That's true. Ordinarg german was "common". Upper class parled francais.
Today Europe is forming to a multi state association - like USA is,
but with multiple languages. It's good to know at least two additional
languages. English is most favoured in germany - and it looks like it's
beginning to become the internet language.
From french, italian and spanish i personally can ... manage to survive well
when in vacancy- using *their* language of course. A matter of politeness
and of unterstanding and enjoying the others' culture. ..
OT end.

>DUESSELDORF, Germany (Reuters) - The average German ate 84.8
>kilos of bread last year*********

That are 231grams per day. German meat consumption is around 250g per day.
Whatever that shall imply. IMO the most advantageous number would be the
average *vegetable* consumation per day. I think the mediterranean countries
are top there.

>(Please do not get confused and think you have ever tasted
>Rye Bread in the USA)   The Writer tried many ethnic
>bakeries and never found one that WAS NOT  LYING about their
>Rye Bread,  they all used  lots of white flour in it.  AND
>furthermore any SuperMarket  "Rye"  Bread has no more than a
>taste  of Rye plus color to make it look dark  like Rye!

That is true.
One reason is, that 100% Rye bread cannot be made with yeast.
And yeast is fast (-> cheap).
Rye bread must be made with sourdough.
And this needs a much longer time to wait/lay.
From the paleo listgroup I've learned the reason why this better:
the waiting time breaks down the antinutrients like phytin and lectins.
Remember, D'Adamo classifies grains often as "avoid", but recommends germs.

Some time ago i wondered, why people always baked bread instead of just
eating them directly (cooked). Now I see the wisdom in it: phytin breakdown.

> RYE  is the predominate grain of the European
>Neolithic Community  IF  judged by what they were eating in
>1946.
>
>AND  how can that relate back to the Neolithic Beginning?
>Was  Rye the first Grain in Europe?   In Egypt?  Or where?

Rye was introduced like Oats in the iron era, about 3000-3500 years ago.
The very first grains were barley, spelt, emmer. "Wheat" of egyptian
texts has not so much to do with todays wheat variety.
Did you notice, that D'Adamo classifies spelt even for BG 0 as
"occasionally" while everything "wheat" is totally "avoid".
I consider this as a hint to the probability of possible problems.

>Secondarily:
>
>Does this change in Europe from  raw Rye to Refined wheat
>signal the beginning of an epidemic  of diabetes in Europe
>as is now developing in the USA?

I think so too.
Add ancient other grains like spelt to rye and sugar to the bad,refined
side.

>
>At least if  some  Whole grains were not partially
>Paolithic,  Or late Paolithic  there is little evidence that
>the   change  form Hunter Gatherer to Farmer   in the
>Neolithic resulted in the type of  horrific epidemic of
>diabetes, cancer and heart disease that refined foods of the
>20th Century have managed.
>
>Please tell me that I am wrong!

I want to tell you that you're right.

In some aspect the early neolithic culture was the best implementation of
nutrition for paleolithic people.
When Linearband and Megalith (the first neolithic cultures) entered middle
Europe, the old lifestyle disappeared within a few years.
This was not a displacement by force or outnumbering as some have tried to
explain it. The advantages of the new must have been very obvious.

The genetic studies mentioned on the list support the view that the local
people remained and adopted the new culture (only 20% of male y-genes
stemming from a neolithic immigration of people).

I think that the main contrast is not between paleolithic and neolithic,
but between lifestyles based on whole nature resources
and industry food production, modification and extraction.

Ray Audette and Neanderthin have provided us with a handy and easy model of
what to avoid or not and a reasoning why to do so (caveman living like
eskimo).
What comes out of it is custom taylored to Ray Audettes diseases:
A anti allergenic and anti diabetic diet.
And this would be helpful for a big percentage of people.

Even if the reasoning of that model has errors (what and why paleo,
genetics, evolution, neanderthals, actual history) --
it often works. And that counts.

I try to take the paradigms of (real, historical) paleolithicum serious and
often harvest total disagreement and misunderstanding.
May be as a counterreaction of the fact that I'm simultaneously a
vegetarian. But this is totally independent from any paleolithical
reasoning, for me.

Regards, Amadeus