On Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:05:39 -1000, Nieft / Secola <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>Amadeus:
>>Exactely i suppose that the fattier portions of animals were favored.
>>Very urgently. But it looks like there were not so much fatty portions
in
>>savannah wild game. You find them in pigs, you won't find much in
gazelle.
>
>Sure you will. Brains and other organs, bone marrow, surface fat.

Maybe you can ask a hunter, who can tell you how much fat a gazelle
has in "Brains and other organs, bone marrow, surface fat".
Where are the hunters here? Experiences wanted!
The only one i recall stating hunting experience here was Ray, telling us
from rabbit starvation without adding fat from other sources. And one
other telled that kangoroo were exceptionally lean.

>>They have no option, whales are hunters as are tigers.
>
>Option? That's their evolutionary path, as humans' is to include animal
>foods in larger amounts than 10%. You want to explore and justify your
>vegansim, fine. But it is not from an honestly evolutionary base.

Kirt, i see that you and many others see hunting as an important
evolutionary trait of humans. And that humans were on their way to
develope
from frugivore to carnivore. I consider the plant eating part and the
older primate backgroud as more important, as the no doubt existing animal
eating time-parts.
This is a different point of view, we probably will not be work out in a
few listserv postings. It is a ongoing scientific debate.

Loren Cordain is more supporting  *your* POV in his conclusions,
for example in
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind9801&L=paleodiet&P=R158
where he elaborates on the clues given by out metabolic properties.

Essentially, he describes humans to be "on the way" to omnivore, with a
tendency to possible dependencies on animal food.

In his excellent article, he considers as tendencial animal-dependent
clues
 Taurin (not an amino acid, but a derivate of methionin)
 long chain EFA's (DHA,EPA,AA)
 Vitamin A
 Vitamin B12
The first 3 are bio-molecules that occur exclusively in animals.
Hunters like cats can't make them (have to eat them).
Humans *can* make them out of essencial precursor substances.
Cordain is citing one (sole) study (his (7) see below) that the
biosynthesis
of these substances was "insufficient" in some way.
Whatever it means and in which context. I haven't read this and don't know
how to access this references.
This study is the only base i know, which would indicate a (slow)
tendency to adopt a animal "dependency" (for vegans only as they are found
in dairy).
Other sources (of supplement makers) stated that even vegans in general
don't show a deficiency on any of these, except b12.
Vitamin b12 is manufactured exclusively by bacteria - in the gut of
animals and humans - and on the surface of plants (which he doesn't mention).
It's reserves in humans are up to 12 years, so, beeing suspicious from
some long-term vegans converting I keep my eye on it.
Especially after we now use to whash the surfaces of our food, as
certainly not done in paleo-times.
It is in my goat cheese, but below RDA, so, I'll see what my test will
show.

>Potatoes are relatively empty calories though.

Potatoes have 11% protein by weight and make up a rather complete
food, with many vitamins, even plenty of vitamin C.
The potatoe protein is very high quality, together with a small addition
of egg, its the best protein quality i've seen from any test
(136% compared to egg, while meat is only 86 % of egg).
With the addition of vitamin A (sweet potatoe),
they make up a very complete food with about 2kg per day
(alas with a load of solanin, a antinutrient).

> Those domestic pigs you are
>so fond off gain weight rapidly on cooked starches.

I'm far from fond of domestic pigs. Wild boar is the paleo one.

>.. but you will never show that veganism is optimal.
>It's only
>advantage is to help you with your "feeling".

I'm not a vegan, i eat small amounts of goat, sheep and very little other
white fresh cheese. I've the body of a mammal.

>>Did *your* mother eat brain?
>
>No. I have though. It is a very interesting food, very powerful.

If she didn't, then your brain - as mine too - was *built up* with all its
DHA close to 100% from biosynthesised DHA (you won't count occasionally
marrow and other traces, will you?).

>Just keep being a strict vegan and time will tell. Perhaps more telling
are
>raw vegan children who are often frail and underdeveloped.

Often? Sometimes. Like sometimes omnivores' too.
I'd attribute more to eating mistakes like w-3 to w-6 fat ratio or
unsoaked
grains... for ill developements.
N.B. non brain/marrow eaters will be *more* sensitive to the w-3/w-6
*ratio*
because the enzymes (elongases) work unmodulated on both. And the
end-result
wil unlike direkt eating from brain/marrow/nerve more reflect the intake.

>>I'll do the vitamin b12 test therefore.
>
>Be careful. B12 deficiency can take many many years to develop and can be
>debilitating and somewhat irreversable when it does.

OK I'll see, I've no fear and no symptoms.
And i know that the b12 level can be brought back in a few weeks of
injections - which was acceptable every 10 years.
But let's see. I whished that a couple of long-term vegans would do this
test.

>So, again, what are you doing on this list? You already know how you are
>going to eat--why not hang on the vegan lists? Seriously?

You really seem to beleave that meat is the credo and central point of
paleo-nutrition. That can be seen differently.
Considering the facts, it could even be a serious mistake.
I am interested in a diet like aquired by genetic adaption from our
anchestors! (last sentence fat underlined)
This has nothing to do with vegan. And not with the meat industry.

> I'd refer you to the beyondveg.com website but you
>already seem to have dismissed most of the experience and references
shared
>there, so what is the point?

This was quite an inspiration and I must have read the whole site.
Some points we have discussed already in previous threads (interesting!).
Some articles were subject to my critique, but remain unchanged.
For example: taurine is *not* an amino acid, but described so.
Or: the overall energy intake from !Kung gives a rather high percentage
from meat. But the table is computed with meat assuming 20% fat.
That's a mistake, fiction.
The author (Tu) just told that he's been using a previous table from
another source. ...

enough of words ..

regards

Amadeus S.

 (7) is:
7.      Salem N et al.  Arachidonate and docosahexaenoate biosynthesis
 in various species and compartments in vivo. World Rev Nutr Diet
 1994;75:114-19.

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