In a message dated 8/5/99 10:49:29 AM !!!First Boot!!!, [log in to unmask]
writes:

<<Who decided what exactly is "the necessary awareness"? Humans of course.
We decided that no being can be spiritual unless it is a human being>>.

Yes, I always thought that at least self-awareness and free will was
necessary, because without them you would be governed by instinct only, as
other non-human animals *appear* to be (who really knows?)  As far as
treating animals ethically because they "have feelings," I was referring to
physical feelings of pain, discomfort, etc., which I think should be
minimized whenever possible. Slaughtering animals is one thing, but torturing
them is another.

<< If you analyze the agri-cultural view of "spirituality" you find that, to
be spiritual, you have to be un-natural. You have to be desireless,
passionless, non-violent, sexless, selfless, etc.   >>

So true!!!!  I am the product of an extensive, thorough Catholic education,
where I was taught that being spiritual *does* indeed mean striving to
overcome as much animal behavior as possible to gain the favor of God and
transcend this "sinful" world.  Although it has been many years since my
schooling ended, I am still a bit brainwashed -- so please bear with me and
my views (which are evolving).

<<But your original claim was not that vegetarianism is "more spiritual" than
factory farming or shopping for meat at a supermarket.  Your original claim
was that vegetarianism is "more spiritual" than carnivory. >>

Just a poor choice of words -- I actually did mean that vegetarianism, IMHO,
is more spiritual than factory farming/shopping for meat at the supermarket.

<< Two wrongs (factory farming + vegetarianism) do not make a
right.>>

My mother always used to say that ;-) but I have never thought about it in
this context before.  This list has certainly been an eye-opener for me;
there are two sides to every story (Mom used to say that too!)  and yours is
quite interesting and compelling ~ Cathy