On Jul 31, 2008, at 12:58 pm, Stanevich, Ron L wrote:

> But to say..."That Cordain should be locked up".... I'm curious  
> Ashley,
> (and it's non of my business) what is your expertise in this area and
> nutrition in general?

Hi Ron,

My knowledge of nutrition came about the same way Ray Audette's did -  
I suffered chronic ill-health and tried to do something about it.   
Unfortunately, trying to follow Cordain's lean meat recommendations  
led me almost to the point of rabbit-starvation, to constant griping  
hunger, and I was very close to abandoning paleo.

But perhaps I was a bit harsh saying he should be locked up... I get a  
bit tetchy sometimes :)  It was not meant to be taken quite as  
literally as I think you did.


> I do not want to pick on the author, but Neanderthin was published  
> when?
> 1996 or something like that.  (I have not read it as it's pretty
> difficult to find)  Whatever one may say about Cordain and his  
> ideas...
> he does seem to back it up with pretty good and current research. yes
> I'm sure there's plenty of research to say otherwise... Remember in  
> Good
> Calories Bad Calories how Taube talks about all the studies that  
> caused
> us to go down the wrong path, or at least a not as efficient path?   
> It's
> good to realize that two different people can read the same studies  
> and
> come to two different conclusions is often the case.

Anyway continuing my little story, it was not until I realised one day  
a very simple fact: the Innuit are known to eat the most fat- (and  
saturated-fat-) rich diet of all hunter-gathers, and yet they suffered  
virtually no heart disease until they were introduced to western  
food.  That was when I said to myself, *I don't care how many studies  
"prove" it, fat can't be bad for you*.

And that is my biggest issue with Cordain: from what I've read, it  
looks like he thinks like a doctor, as if you can do a million  
studies, each on one millionth of the subject of nutrition, you can  
piece it all together and understand it in the in the end.  (I usually  
compare doctors to blind men identifying an elephant.)

By comparison - what I really liked about Ray Audette when I read  
Neanderthin was his basis in simple observable fact.  The stuff that  
not even a statin researcher could mis-interpret.


> I'm just curious if more people bash Cordian and Lean meats due to the
> fact they like their steaks marbled?

Well, I don't.  I avoid marbled meat as far as I can.

> And their salads wilted with bacon
> grease.

This I do like.

> It's common sense that the animals of the day didn't just graze
> around like cows and pigs do today.  If anyone has ever eaten wild  
> boar
> it's nowhere near as fat as the bacon you see at Krogers, or if you've
> ever ate a wild turkey... same thing.  I feel Cordain wants the fat
> trimmed because of the society we live in today is different than back
> then... animals had to run for their lives, etc... the food they ate
> then is different than now, and that it's the nutritional content of
> animals today versus the nutritional content of animals back then.
>
> That's my thought..  Cordain's advice has done wonders for me, and  
> he is
> constantly out there promoting this diet, doing research, sending out
> free newsletters, etc...

I probably should forgive him.  But promoting lean meat and Canola oil  
are things I find hard to forgive.

Specifically, I should read The Paleo Diet for Athletes, and see how  
his opinions have changed.


> I really wish some of these people that bash him would state their
> reasons for bashing him, his book is more current, his studies are  
> more
> current, etc..   Plus I would not bash Neanderthin as that author  
> surely
> knows more about what he's talking about than I ever could... it's not
> my expertise.

The truth of a statement is not determined by the length of time the  
speaker spent researching it!  If we don't criticise the material that  
is presented to us then paleo will become dogma, like the USDA food  
pyramid (or whatever it is now).  I applaud Ray Audette for the huge  
leap of faith he took going down the paleo route, very few people come  
to that conclusion independently, and even fewer will go and publish a  
book about it.

But if there are mistakes in paleo books, they *have* to be corrected,  
or many of the people that try it will fail, and come to the  
conclusion that eating a "natural human diet" isn't healthy.  Then  
paleo (or rather, the published misinterpretation of it) will be  
dismissed as a crazy fad like the cabbage soup diet.  And I think  
risking offending people is just the price we have to pay if we want  
our knowledge to move forward.  The alternative is to turn ourselves  
into a clone of the medical industry, where smiling and nodding gets  
you a long way.

So just to be clear: I don't have a personal vendetta against  
Cordain :)  I just think he was published some big mistakes.


> But that's my $0.02,  Ashley, hope you are not offended,

I'll live :)  It'd be a bit hypocritical of me to say we have to risk  
offending people if I'm not prepared to have people criticise what I  
say.

> as I was not
> intentionally calling you out, it's just your phrase very well sums up
> what appears to be several peoples opinions about Cordain..  I
> personally think they are misguided, but in life there are more ways
> than one to remove the epidermis layer of a feline.  Cordain versus
> (insert favorite author here) is much the same way I feel.
>
> Cordain has worked for me, so I'll side with him.

Well I've benefited from things he's written too, so I should be  
grateful for those.  But I'm not siding with him.

Hope this clears up my opinions!

Ashley