Padraig wrote> Now... the authors don't present views that we were all
strict fruitarians or explicitly claim what paleo man ate

If that's the case, that they don't even indicate what Paleo people ate,
then it sounds like their book has little real world value for me other than
curiosity. The writings and recordigns of and by indigenous peoples,
scientists, medical doctors, and fellow investigators of ways of eating and
lifestyle that led me to a flesh-based Paleo diet have delivered fantastic
real personal value to me that has changed my life for the better, including
in ways beyond diet and health.

> I hate seeing my fellow human beings (those who are naturally low-protein
probably more related to me), suffering to I try to proclaim it to those who
will listen anyway... and especially try to denounce misinformation about
how paleolithic man ate. 

Well then you've come to the wrong place. You'll find that most people here
have experienced marvelous benefits from a Paleo-based diet. If you want to
help the suffering you should spend the time you're wasting here at
vegetarian and SAD (Weight Watchers, etc.) forums. 

I'm not particularly interested in seeking out places to make denunciations
of misinformation about Paleolithic man or vegetarianism or anything else
amongst the people who follow different WOE than mine. I'll leave those
battles to the propagandists. At this forum I'm more interested in
information sharing between people here who share a similar diet and
lifestyle interest. If I want to learn about the benefits of a fruitarian
diet and horrors of a flesh-based one I'll go to a fruitarian forum. That's
the beauty of the Internet--there's something for everyone. I certainly
wouldn't go to a fruitarian diet forum just to harangue the people there
with my contrary views--especially without reading a lot of their posts first. 

> Fruits are the nearly perfect food (probably perfect in the wild), they
are the food of choice for all primates. 

While fruits are a common food among primates, no primates eat a strictly
fruitarian diet--that is a human invention--which you can read about here:
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2a.shtml. As I
mentioned before, all primates, including homo sapiens sapiens, eat at least
some nonplant foods.

I'm not certain that there's one single "perfect" wild food for all people.
In an ideal world, people would mostly eat the wild foods that are native to
their region, rather than import tropical fruits from thousands of miles
away, burning fossil fuels in the process. Unfortunately, much of the
indigenous flora and fauna of the world have been wiped out and many areas
are overpopulated, so this is no longer possible.

As I said, I've personally found that I don't do well if I eat too much
fruit and fruit-based products and do much better on a diet based on
meat/fat/organs than I do even on wild fruit. I'm sorry if that upsets you.
If you do well on wild fruit, more power to you and thanks again for not
eating my flesh foods! :-) 

> I'm not a fanatic. I think I will always take more than one serving of
fish per week. 

That's good to hear. Fanatics bore me. Like you I eat what seems to work
well for me. I also don't go overboard on criticizing an approach until I've
tried it myself. I was a little bit skeptical of a very low-carb, high-fat
approach to a Paleo diet and I asked questions about it and investigated
carefully, but I postponed any criticisms of it until after I had a chance
to try it. Upon trying it I find that I'm doing very well on it after about
6 months of gradual adoption and seem to do better the more strict I am
about it (though it was not my hope or intention that I would have to be
strict about it).

>>Wild men are savages, savages hunt for meat... tribes hunt for meat...
>clearly ...

> My point was that it was that sort of thinking that helped propagate the
idea of "Man the Hunter". 

I can put your mind at ease on that one. The thinking that helped propagate
hunting is millions of years old and predates our species of H. s. sapiens.
All cultures that existed before 10,000-20,000 years ago had hunting as a
key element of that culture and in all cases of hunting and gathering
cultures studied so far, hunting is seen as sacred, not "savage." It is
modern agrarian and industrial white men who most commonly view hunting as
"savage." 

Hunting comes from nature and is found in all ancient indigenous cultures.
Anti-hunting comes from those newer agrarian societies that have a tendency
toward ethnocentrism, colonialism, and imperialism and think that there is
only one right way to live. These powers have forced totalitarian
agriculture on nearly all the indigenous peoples and nearly wiped them all
out in the process. 

Vegetarianism and fruitarianism are even newer concepts that some modern men
have been trying to force on indigenous peoples and indeed all people. These
books will help put you further at ease regarding this and dispel the
misguided notions of the overlords of Taker societies on these issues:

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
The Ways of My Grandmothers by Beverly Hungry Wolf
Vilhjalmur Stefansson
The Tender Carnivore and the Sacred Game by Paul Shepard
Limited Wants, Unlimited Means: A Reader on Hunter Gatherer Economics and
the Environment, edited by John Gowdy
Tribe by Bruce Parry
The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers 
Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond
Stone Age Economics by Marshall Sahlins
"Progress Kills" by Survival International (Survival International defends
the rights, including the hunting rights, of indigenous Leaver peoples in
the face of oppression from modern agrarian Taker societies)
Perpetuating Hunter Tradition: Redefining Hunting In Terms Of Its Positive
Influence On Youth, Society and The Environment by Randall L. Eaton, Ph.D.

..and there are others.

Relocating us will be meaningless if we do not have land to hunt on. - Peter
Penashue, Innu, Canada

> Maybe it's because of the dogma that seems to be floating around here and 
> the net in general that the Paleo Diet consisted of a very high amount of
meat 
> protein. 

Some people are dogmatic about it, yes, which is true in any dietary
category. The worst fanaticism I have seen and experienced is from strict
vegetarians & vegans, though that doesn't excuse it in any corner. You'll
find some people in this forum who eat foods that aren't normally considered
Paleo, such as dairy products. So people are generally fairly tolerant here.
If anyone told you that this was a dogmatic or intolerant forum, they misled
you. Some people strongly disagreed with my consumption of flax seed oil,
perhaps in an overly negative way, but they didn't insult me or banish me
and I used it as a motivator to question my assumptions and look further
into the topic. If you have specific examples of dogma you see here by all
means point them out.

I personally don't see a necessity to eat a very high amount of
meat--requirements to eat only one type of food tend to come from modern
people who base their nutrition on religious or philosophical dogmas from
the last 2000 years, such as those behind some of vegetarianism/veganism.
Most people here who eat a flesh-based diet came to it, like me, after
trying other alternatives. Some people, such as the traditional !Kung San,
seem to do well eating a sizable amount of nuts and other plant foods in
addition to meats (though even they eat less carbs and more omega-3 fats
than most Westerners). I hope you will also acknowledge that some people,
such as the traditional Inuit, Plains Indians, Nenet and Yeniseians of
Siberia, Enawene Nawe of Brazil, myself and others here, do very well indeed
on a meat/fat/organ- or fish/seafood-based diet and that hunting/fishing is
sacred to the remaining traditional indigenous peoples of the world who have
not already been exterminated or subjugated and to people like me who hunt
or fish to live healthfully and as natural/spiritual participation in the
sacred wheel of life, not purely for sport or entertainment. I would defend
your right to eat a fruit-based diet and I hope you would defend my right to
eat a flesh-based diet, as sustainably as we both can, for there is no one
precise right way to live.

Have you even tried a diet based on a raw or lightly- or slow-cooked
pasture-fed meat/fat/organs or wild seafood for a few weeks? If not, how do
you know how you would do on it? Stephen Covey had good advice on
this--"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."

> I certainly never could imagine wanting to eat or ate so much meat. 

No one is forcing you to do so and if you won't even consider trying it or
even variations of it, I don't think it reveals wisdom to criticize it. I
wouldn't criticize vegetarianism without first trying it or at least
something very similar. It seems that you had your mind made up and you are
just seeking reeinforcement of your assumptions. That does not seem a good
way to learn.

By the way, you might be interested to learn something I've learned in my
own investigations of my Irish heritage. Via DNA tracking, most of the Irish
have been found to be descended from ancient Siberian hunter-gatherer
peoples. The "Kets" Yeniseian peoples of Siberia retain the greatest
concentration of genetic material from those ancient peoples and until the
Soviets subjugated them in the 20th century were still living a
hunter-gatherer lifestyle. So studying the Kets of the early 20th century
gives a glimpse into the way of life of the ancestors of the Irish. As with
the Kets, hunting was sacred to the ancient Irish hunter gatherers and
pastoralists.

Your questions and comments have helped me organize some of my own thoughts.
Thanks for that!

Swiyohake'! / Tókhi wániphika ní! / Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat! / Good luck!