On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:03:08 -0500 gordon <[log in to unmask]> writes:
> Micheal,
> > This event [increased leisure time] has happened in the past few
> > hundred years, at most, and only with the privileged.
Ardeith writes:
Absolutely true..........only the privileged had time for
painting, reading, writing.....why do you think they are
sometimes called the "leisure class"?
Gordon wrote:
> On what basis do you claim it has happened only in the past few
> hundred years? Looks to me like leisure time for the average person has been
> increasing steadily for many thousands years, starting from the
> invention of the wheel or thereabouts.
Ardeith writes:
The "average person"over the past few thousand years was
not the scribe, or the tax collector, or the ruling class.........
The "average person" was a peasant.....a peon.....a farmer,
a herder, a weaver, a potter, a cook, .....or any of the other
hundreds of positions necessary to support the "upper"
or ruling class of people in such a manner that they had
the leisure to write, read, paint, or conduct wars..................
Michael:
> > Most people in the world
> > still have to work their tails off(no pun intended) even today.
Gordon:
> Exactly. And you are trying to say that with all our intelligence
> and progress we have managed only to create a situation much worse than
> that of our paleo ancestors. If what you are saying is true then we have not
> evolved. We have DEvolved.
Ardeith writes:
Absolutely! Studies done on the bones of HG's and the bones of
agriculurists who lived maybe five thousand years ago show that
when populations began to practice agriculture, they became
smaller, less robust people. They began to consume large amounts
of grain products......which we know is not good for one's health.....
and they had much less protein in any form available to them......
We were healthier as HG's.......and had more time for social
interactions and singing and dancing.....................
What agriculture has done for the world is create an over-
abundance of grain foods, which has lead to an over-
abundance of humans..........and those humans are not the
healthiest specimens of the species.........................
Remember, the arguments for using genetically engineered
crops is to feed more people more grains......as if the world
really *needs* more humans...........................
Gordon wrote:
> I think you have a naive and overly romanticized view of paleolithic
> life. I think our paleo ancestors worked their tails off from dawn to dusk
> to hunt and gather enough food to feed themselves and their families. It was
> for this reason that they had no time to invent written language or to
> build spaceships to the moon. They were too busy trying to scrounge a
> living.
Ardeith writes:
Nope! They did not labor anywhere near the degree you picture.
They had plenty of time -and energy - for singing, dancing,
drumming, making pretty pots, making body ornaments, making
fancy clothes (fancy by their standards)...........they worked
hard for a few weeks to get the fish or meat preserved for the
winter..........and to gather the fall harvest of nuts, fruit, etc....
but most of the time....the work was not too heavy.......no
fields to plow, no seed to sow, no weeds to hoe, no water
to carry to the crops, no predators or insects to worry about,
........harvest time was about the same for farmers and HG's
........both had to lay up stores for the winter.....but they were
harvesting different things............and the HG's hadn't had to
live their lives as slaves to the corn-patch (or whatever) for
months before the harvest!
Gordon wrote:
> Intellectual endeavours could not be pursued until our basic needs
> for food and shelter were met and handled efficiently.
Ardeith writes:
Basic needs for shelter can be met by a brush leanto in moderate
climates. Basic needs for food were met by HG's for 40
thousand years with only a few hours work, a few days out of
a week. As for intellectual endeavors.......by whose standards?
I suspect memorizing thousands of names of ancestors and
their stories takes as much intellect as composing modern
poetry.......on second thought, based on what I've read recently
of modern poetry....I say we've "devolved" there too!
Gordon wrote:
This happened in the neolithic, when we learned how to
save ourselves *enormous* amounts of time
by growing our own food.
Ardeith writes:
Nope......no time was saved......but a leisure class was
created .............and a "land-slave" class was created....
such things are impossible in a HG population.......
Have you read any of Jared Diamond's books? He
examines a lot of these issue .........................
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