On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:34:39 -0500, Hilary McClure <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Apparently paleopathologists find folds of
>skin that indicate obesity. Some claim the obesity rate in ancient Egypt
>was similar to the rate today in the United States.

You may accept me to doubt this.
However I'll take a look at your references, archeology
including archeopathology is fa favourite theme for me.

Egypt, like any pre-industrial culture with firm settlements
is plant based, normally a combination of grass seed and legume.
There's always a small percentage of meat from hunted and worn out farm
animals, usually around 5%. Increasing this is a matter of
synthetic fertilizing, pesticides and industrialisation, so you can find
this rule of thumb in nearly every pre-industrial culture (with firm
houses).

So, obesity and Egypt - my impression always was and is that it it's simply
impossible to overeat (in terms of calories) with a grain diet.
2400 kcal requires more than 700g (dry) of wheat or barley.
This is an incredible amount, though roman legioners are known to have eaten
that much every day.
Grains, legumes, also fruit , vegetables are so bulky that it's hard to
overeat with them in terms of calories.
In addition even when cooked and soaked etc. there are some problematic
ingredients left (phytin etc), which discourage to eat too much of it
(there is a "stop").


> At least it seems
>well accepted that they had major levels or artery disease including
>advanced calcified atherosclerosis.

Ok, this I buy.
I tend to attribute the mass arteriosclerosis to prostaglandin
disbalancements, caused by bad fat compositions.
Of dominating omega-6 fat.
In today's western culture the unfavourite fat combination comes from
ordinary (w-6) vegetable oils, and fed up animal fat.
In Egypt time from unfavourite fat composition of wheat.
Wheat based nutrition required some amount of omega-3 donators.
These were flax or poppy or hemp.
In Egypt there *was* flax, but I'm uncertain to which degree the seed or
oil was exploited. In a society where few live beyond the age of 40
the arteriosclerosis theme wouldn't be recognised as a problem.

An additional factor (for PG disbalancement) may be high insulin levels,
as Sears suspects with it's effect on d5d.
However of with a whole grain cereal or legume diet insulin
doesn't have to be expected very high, compared to the alternatives.

>...and I would like to suggest that he just
>didn't know about hyperinsulinemia due to starch-based diet.

Starch based?
That's the difference between a whole grain and white flour.
Hyperinsulinemia may have been found from time to time,
but I tink is not the normal for a ancient diet.

Btw energy supply in ancient times was likewise enhanced by fatty items -
fatty seeds. Flax, poppy, hemp (and "Leindotter" which's
name I don't know in english).
Later, after roman times (and after about 100 BC) two more fats came in:
olives and pig fat.
Animal fats before I think could be neglected
- because they were few and so very lean.

Note that all these fat sources have a very good omega-3/omega-6
composition, even pigs which are not fed up.

> Another
>possibility is that gliadin from whole-wheat was causing
>autoimmune-related artery disease.

Yes.
There are some reported cases of coeliakie from rome
They were treated with rice, and there existed a "wheat"-flour variety
which was produced by first soaked - then dried - then milled grains.
Low in Gluten and Antinutrients then.

>http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/xmas98/magee/magee.html
>
>I'm not sure that it's true that there is no danger of taurine deficit.
>...And it
>is at rather low levels in most or all plant foods. I think there is
>more information about that topic at www.beyondveg.com.

Taurine is not (not at all) an amino acid as has been claimed in beyondveg.
When I found this out, I wrote this:
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?A2=ind9907&L=paleofood&P=R18286
Taurin is normally made in humans like thousands of other stuff.
It is made of an amino acid, cystein, which is abundant in all proteins.
Maybe low in low protein diets, but read on:

Ok, beyondveg writes, studies "suggest" that  "the rate of synthesis is
inadequate to maintain 'normal' plasma  taurine concentrations in .. low
taurine intakes."

The studa resulted for *vegans* that
"the plasma taurine concentrations in the vegans were significantly reduced
to 78% of control values."

20% off? I'd say even that cannot be called a defficiency.

Btw there are no vegan ancient cultures, because every early culture kept
animals, (particularly sheep and goat) and drank the milk
(and most ate the animals, for some like Linearband it's not shure).

regards,
Amadeus