At 11:43 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/4/99 12:28:56 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [log in to unmask]
>writes:
>
><< Do you mean to say that cows are spiritual and lions are not?  That
>rabbits are more capable of spirituality than hawks? >>
>
>No, of course not, but then again, I'm not so sure that animals are capable
>of spirituality at all, because they lack the necessary awareness. I feel
>that there is spirituality in (ethical) vegetarianism because it involves
>compassion, empathy and selflessness -- qualities that are undeniably
>spiritual.

What if it is misplaced compassion and empathy?  What if it mearly feeds
the ego?  It could hardly be called selfless.  Is a philosophy based upon
errors in judgement spiritual?  Maybe, but it hardly makes it noble.  Alot of
vegetarian dogma I think appeals to those who find pleasure in denying
themselves and acetism.

><<Do you mean to say that that man (Chief Seattle) was not spiritual,
>because, like the lion, he loved to eat buffalo meat? >>
>
>No, I do not mean to say that, but you cannot compare apples and oranges.
>Chief Seattle would probably agree that the methods by which most people get
>their meat today is anything but spiritual, and usually does not involve
>reverence toward Mother Earth or The Great Spirit. Nor does modern meat
>production help foster an understanding or bond between man and his natural
>environment, as hunting buffalo did for Native American.
>
>The majority of meat we eat comes from factory farming which is an inhumane,
>greedy process that disregards the physical/mental well being of animals for
>the sake of greater production and the resulting profits. Where is the
>spirituality in that? Do you think that Chief Seattle would approve of
>dragging sick or injured animals without mercy to an unceremonious slaughter?
>Do you think the Chief would enjoy eating the flesh of an animal that has
>never seen the light of day?  I doubt it.  He might even think such a process
>would offend the Creator, and I would have to agree with that.

It really depends upon how you want to view the situation.  Is providing
good food
for affordable prices unspiritual?  Certainly we can debate what is
acceptable good
food and practices but what may be very sensible to one seems ghastly to
another.
Who's right?  There's alot of talk of "spirituality" but I don't think
anyone really agrees
what this is.  I suspect that many ideas of spirituality are abit
"airy-fairy" and not
well grounded and really appeal to romantic feeling appealing to ego.  I
can't see
how buying your hamburger at the supermarket is INHERENTLY unspiritual.  There
is alot of talk by the "experts" but many of them seem quite contradictory.
 Lao Tzu
talked about the Tao that can be spoken isn't it.  Of course he also said
that those
who talk alot about it, don't know what they're talking about...  and he
had alot
to say!  ;-)


>Hunting can be an exception, particularly when it is accompanied by the sense
>of awe and thankfulness that was evident in Native American hunting practice.
>Another exception was pointed out by Deanna when she shared with us the
>guidelines of humane treatment and slaughter of animals as outlined in Jewish
>Law, whereby the shochet, or slaughterer must be a person of great
>scholarship, sensitivity and piety.

You out to read Lewis and Clarks expedition through the West.  There is one
graphic description of a common Plains Indian hunting technique of running
herds of buffalo off cliffs.  Much was not eaten and left to rot.  Sounds like
people are the same the world around.  (I don't know if I take much comfort
in this...  ;-)  )  Of course, they may have been under the unspiritual urgings
of hunger...  Maybe the secret is to eat when you're hungry and sleep when
you're tired!

>There are many ways to do something (including killing animals) the
>difference is the effect the chosen method has on the person who performs it,
>and the people who support it. I don't slaughter animals myself, however, I
>support the methods which involve the most compassion because it benefits me
>spiritually.  ~ Cathy


  Wade Reeser