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From:
"Nicholas P. Schultz" <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:29:45 EST
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First let me say that I very much agree that Depression is a serious illness,
I went through a similar experience to that of Justin.  I worked with 2
different Psychologists and 3 Psychiatrists in addition to 2 GPs.  I also did
a lot of reading of the medical literature regarding this issue.  And Ben is
right in saying that you must be involved in your own care.  My original post
about dietary issues in depression was not meant to suggest that diet could
be a cure, only that a good diet - a paleo diet -- can help.  Since Justin
asked only "what should a depressed person eat" that was the focus of the
post.  However, since the issue has expanded let me add a few things:

Depressed feelings and clinical depression are very different.  So too is a
case of temporary but severe depression.  As Ben put it, depression can be a
case of faulty wiring or brain structure.  The issue of neurotransmitter
function and its role in depression is probably at the core here as Ben
suggests.  In some of these cases of clinical depression diet will not be a
cure.  However, having a healthier diet can only help and certain changes
have profound effects for some.  I too am not sure about the Potatoes for
Prozac idea, the science of it is, as Ben says, "a little shaky."  Yet, when
you eat a reduced carb diet depression symptoms often improve.  Perhaps this
is only because one feels in better health and thus is better able to deal
with the problems of depression, but whatever the reason, a paleo diet will
probably be of help to those suffering from this and other illnesses.  Of
course a Paleo diet should be high in w3 fats and this should also be
important, perhaps more so than carb intake - I can also recommend the Omega
Diet as a good resource for this topic.  I have no data to support this, but
my guess is that many of the benefits from low carbing, ala Atkins, is
related to a concomitant reduction in w6 fats.  Atkins encourages butter over
margarine and many carbs sweets are also loaded with w6 fats.  And, of
course, you get to eat fatty fish.  So you may be getting a significant
reduction in the overall w6:w3 ratio.

Hans said "There are enough psychosocial factors in our non Paleo lives to
make good reason for depressions."  Again I agree.  Though most of these
depressions would fall into the non-clinical variety, these can also be
severe cases and many are diagnosed as clinical; for sure many many people
are prescriebd prozac for this reason.

To bring the issue back to a Paleolithic perspective, our lives ARE very
different from those of our distant ancestors.  Michael said "I've been told
that HG's spent only one hour a day, to hunt, gather, and store food."  I
haven't heard an estimate that low before; it is possible I suppose, but it
does sound a little low.  I think that on average a day would be from 2 to 6
hours of actual subsistence labor.  Of course this is very difficult to know
with any certainty.  And it does not include the time spent on major hunts
which could last for days, nor does it account for over-wintering for those
groups in cold climates.  Indeed there are great variations in subsistence
patterns.  The Paleo-Indians of the pacific northwest coast of north America,
for example spent almost zero time during the winter months.  This is because
they are forced to store up enough food to last through the frozen winters.
They do this during the rest of the year, for example, by setting up camps
near salmon runs and spending virtually all day catching and processing fish.
 Thus their average daily time spent is not very meaningful.  Note also that
these groups consumed very large amounts of w3 fats -- Cold water fish was
present at almost every meal.

During the winter months, they had nothing but free time.  Daily life
consisted of much social gathering and ritual activity but little subsistence
work.  Not to say that they didn't do much, making totem poles and dance
masks and such is time consuming and hard work.

Perhaps just as important is that the stress pattern of our ancestors was
probably different too. We are all well aware of the problem with chronic
stress in our society and I suggest that chronic stress was lower in Hg's.
They were not stress free of course.  To use the same example as above, the
Tsimshian, Tlingit and Haida of the NW Coast, had fairly complicated social
structures involving ownership of resources and reciprocity.  This causes a
similar stress factor to our modern debt stress.  If I need to use your berry
patch this year, then I will have to pay you back next year plus interest.
Sound familiar?  Furthermore, hunting (in this case mostly fishing for
whales) among these Hg's is not a very successful undertaking.  Failure
causes acute stress again not unlike our own job demands.  However, I don't
think that it is unreasonable to conclude that our stress levels, both
chronic and acute, are far greater than in our genetic history.  Every time I
drive in traffic I feel stressed and probably have a stress reaction which as
we know can impair overall health.

One last remark on this topic:  In some descriptions of modern Hg's I got the
impression that their attitude to work was very different than ours.  Again,
not to simplify, but some tribes don't think of work as a negative thing at
all.  That is, they don't really make a distinction between leisure time and
work time.  This would explain the lazy slave idea.  It is not so much that
they don't work, just that they don't share the modern work ethic.  I
remember one tribe in which a group of them went on a trip to a neighboring
villiage.  After only few hours of walking, some of the group felt like
stopping for a while so htey all stopped amd made camp.  They started again
the next day and continued the trip stopping whenever they felt like it.  The
trip could have been made in a day or two, but took over a week this way.
This doesn't make since to us, but to them finishing the trip and being on it
and camping were all equally good things to do.  Perhaps this reduction in
goal oriented motivation is also less stressfull since it is impossible to
fail.

Hans also said "In "Why we get sick" the authors suggest that depression can
be a state needed when something in ones life has to be changed."  AND
Ben Said "Unfortunately, I don't know the incidence of depression in hunter
gatherers"

I don't remember where I read it and I do remember having some problems with
it, but I read an article about a primate study where they identified
primates, chimps I think, that exhibited signs of depression after some
social failure.  That is, a young male would take to sitting off by himself
and curling into a fetal position for a few days after an unsuccessful
attempt to move up in the tribe hierarchy.  The suggestion was that this
allowed the chimp time to recoup his physical and mental health and that it
allowed time for the tribe to do the same socially.  Interesting, but
obviously a very sketchy idea.  I am not sure that depression, though, would
not be possible in Hg's.  Remember the Neanderthal skeleton that had
arthritis?  The assumption is that his tribe cared for him even though he
could not have been very productive in the practical sense.  Of course, he
may have been a wise man, but that raises other issues.

Sasha said "He makes a case for the importance of...being with another
attentive human being."

I would say that this occurs in abundance in Paleo life, though as you
suggest not so much in our own.  The Continuum concept makes a similar
argument with regard to caring for children.

Nick Schultz

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