On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:48:02 -0500 Amadeus Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>
writes:

> You did realize that i do *not* describe "the" paleo diet as
> vegetarian, did you?

Yes, I did note that specifically...

> It's just my personal choice. I consider it possible and natural.
> But i do think that the role of meat in actual paleolithic times is
> grossly overstated sometimes and mixed up with other topics like,
> - treating diabetes  and  obesity, bodybuilding, inuit diet....

Yes, it *IS* your personal choice, but despite your evasions, it simply
would *NOT* have been possible for pre-technological man could have
survived on *YOUR* kind of diet.

You insist that a paleolithic diet could not have contained as much
animal protein as the rest of "us" believe.  However, we have all stated
MANY protein sources that would have been abundantly available, and
edible, and able to sustain life very well.   You, on the other hand,
have stubbornly refused to propose a *dependable* source of sufficient
plant foods (with or without a "small" amount of animal foods) which
could have sustained paleo and pre-paleo-man.  Yes, below you offer a
combination of FOODS that might work, but you still do nothing to explain
how this would have been practical due to seasonal availability WITHOUT
the technology of agriculture...

As I have stated, I do not strictly follow a paleo diet myself, but I do
follow a low carbohydrate diet, which is very close to paleo.  I can
assure you that there is a huge, and important connection between the
prohibited foods common to both of these "diets" and obesity, and I'll
offer my 36" waist and 80 pound weight loss (going on 4 years and still
shaving off the odd pound here and there with ONLY a change in diet...).
For a better understanding of the connection with diabetes, I suggest
that you read (if you can get it) "Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution".
You can also go to any of the lowcarb mailing lists and ask for personal
experiences of diabetics, and then see if you still feel the connection
is "overstated..."

Bodybuilding?  I dunno... I'm not into that, but I accept that many
successful bodybuilders use some form of carb reduction or restriction as
part of their dietary regimen.

As for the Inuit diet... yes, I can see where that would trouble you...
An entire population that lived for thousands of years, surviving under
extreme conditions (Bavarian winters?  HA! :-), and thriving on a diet
virtually devoid of vegetable matter for most of the year...  Even
better, look at what happened to them when they gained access to rich
sources of carbohydrates...  Obesity... diabetes...  not a pretty
picture...


> True, eating animals is possible wherever animals live year round.
> Such areas as i live in (Bavaria) where winters are cold and snowy
> are not inhabitable without some technology. Particularly making
clothes and
> heat.

We are not talking about technologies used for protection from the
elements.  We are talking about technologies used to make the INedible
edible...  While it may be beyond YOUR abilities (and mine) to survive a
Bavarian winter with paleo-level technologies, it most certainly WAS
within the capability of paleo-man.  There most certainly *IS* wildlife
available in such an environment, and, like it or not, man, for all his
lack of specialization, is a fierce and cunning hunter and killer...


> But if protein toxicity comes after a few weeks (on low fat game)

Well, there you go again...  protein toxicity...

You wanna know something REALLY scary?  WATER TOXICITY!  Did you know
that that stuff can be DEADLY???  I mean, get enough of that stuff and it
could KILL you!  Personally, I don't see how paleo man could have
possibly used it!


> If there is an area we *are* adapted to - that's it.
> It has trees, bushes and roots, tubers, shots.
> These provide nutrient dense food items like nuts, tree fruit and
> tubers.

YEAR 'ROUND, Amadeus, year 'round...  Nuts, fruits, and tubers are
SEASONAL...  Offer us a practical solution, not impossible
generalities...


> Shurely paleo people, hominids, hominoids, australopithecines did
> consume worms grasshoppers...all that. No doubt.
> As far as these are not fat they need a *big*...

Not fat?

> Would *you* care to construct a possible paleo diet of *your*
> preference?
> Possible in a ..... savannah over a million of years?
> Without arrows, nets and fishhooks?
> And if you use meat... please choose a wild game.

Been there, done that... insects, small, medium, possibly some larger
mammals, birds, reptiles, depending on location, fish, shellfish,
mollusks... you know... FOOD...


> For exchange i attempt now a possible, plausible, probable
> vegetarian paleo diet. Aiming for a 2600 kcal diet (adult man).


Same problem you always have, Amadeus... AVAILABILITY... you absolutely
depend on SEASONAL foods, but have NO evidence that they could possibly
have obtained them in sufficient quantity, with sufficient continuity to
constitute a survivable long-term diet.  ANIMALS, OTOH, are available
constantly, and only a small amount of travel will make fresh sources
available (when the little critters aren't accommodating enough to walk
over on their own...).







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