On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:39:08 -0400, Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>> A thiamin lack causes a stowag in the stage of pyruvate. ...
>
>Niacin and lipoic acid are also essential for the pyruvate
>dehydrogenase complex to work.

Yes, not only thiamin. Thiamin is just one of the 3 major components
you mention. But thiamin is the one which is dietary absulute essential and
often missing because very sensible (Niacin is a vitamin but can be made of
tryptophan).
About lipoic acid I'd like to learn more. Somehow it seems to belong to
the Vitamin B-Complex, but i've hardy ever seen it in a supplementation.

The whole process if this process isn't that simple (quote):
<<Pyruvate dehydrogenase is a large enzyme complex (5 million Dalton in
E.coli) which organizes three major protein complexes in a particle
larger than a ribosome>>

>Well, it's a striking hypothesis.  If it's missing, there remains
>the question of why it's missing.  If it's dietary, then that
>would imply that obese people are getting less thiamin or niacin
>than others.

Or vice versa. There will be other reasons for obesity, but thiamin (or
niacin) deficit seems to *demand* obesity and glucose metabolism disturbance
(diabetes....).

Dietary reasons could mean toxins, destroying one of these stuffs.
For example raw fish is know to contain thiaminases (destroying thiamin),
something else?

Other dietary reasons for deficiencies of thiamin are very easy to find.
Just any gram sugar or white flour. The thiamin part of the enzyme is
described to be *used up* so a ingestion proportional to carbohydrate
is necessary. Sweets and white flour don't have it (or nor enough).
Each gram of this carbs will have to stop at pyruvate level then.
And obviously there's a different pathway, which can convert glucose into
fat, without use of the pdc (Pyruvate decarboxylation complex).

Even if *this* pathway doesn't exist, obesity may also be caused in the
attempt of the body to aquire additional food energy from fat.
This tendency may *never* end because of the essential glucose need of the
brain. This means, brain requires us to satisfy about 500 kcal of food
energy of glucose, of course *with* pdc.
You can imagine what happens if pdc is low (much glucose is unusable).
It will signal hunger exactely until its energetic requirements are met.

>But there are plenty of obese people who take large
>multi-vitamin supplements, including the B vitamins, who
>nevertheless remain obese.  So simply increasing intake of
>thiamin and niacin doesn't appear to correct the problem.

Somehow the usual supplements don't seem to make it. Why?
Westin Price also rejected syntetic vitamins, but recommended natural
supplements.
The B-complex is complexer as supplent makers may know.
That alpha lipoic acid I've never seen for example. Other stuff, present in
natural food items may equally be missing in supplements.

In this aspect regular brewers yeast could be such a equal out for
low-vitamin carbohydrates. Though this brewers yeast is awfully high in
B-complex vitamins, it still takes quite a lot to achieve the rda amounts.

>Lipoic
>acid is mainly made in the cells; there could be some impediment
>to its formation in the obese.

Yes, possibly ba any defect or intoxication.
Possibly again by some dietary missing stuff.

I can't remember to have seen a obese whole grain eater in my life.
And obese people almost ever like sweets or much fatty things.
Probably because their body can't readily use this energy.

>Well, I need to check that again, considering the total thiamin
>and niacin "score" for each one, and see if it looks promising.
>
It appears to me, that anchell permitted food items need to be high also in
riboflavin (B2). This vitamin is used at some other stage in the glucose
breakdown machanism. *And* is reported to be necessary for fat metabolism.

I looked at the difference of carb to b1/b2 in grapes and wine.
I didn't find much advantage in the grapes compared to wine.
Except that wine carbs are alcohol. And I'm unsure how bad alcohol may
impair our Citric acid cycle. If it does, it doesn't make sense to allow
hard alcohol. Except when american (or anchel time) wine was of the sweet
kind.

heading homewards
regards

Amadeus