On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:13:11 -0500, Wally Ballou <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>Note that he never really answered my challenge to postulate an ACTUAL
>vegetarian (or near vegetarian) diet that paleo man or prehuman could
>have eaten.
See below............
> He goes as far as admitting that they were not entirely
>vegetarian,...
You did realize that i do *not* describe "the" paleo diet as vegetarian,
did you?
It's just my personal choice. I consider it possible and natural.
But i do think that the role of meat in actual paleolithic times is grossly
overstated sometimes and mixed up with other topics like,
- treating diabetes and obesity, bodybuilding, inuit diet....
>.. but then he also tries to imply that they could not possibly
>have survived on the wide variety of animal foods that would have been
>available year 'round.
True, eating animals is possible whereever animals live year round.
Such areas as i live in (Bavaria) where winters are cold and snowy are not
inhabitable without some technology. Particularly making clothes and heat.
Winter food is sparse and requires food stocks - what the mesolithic h/g
population did with hazelnuts to a big extent.
Or eating winter animals.
But if protein toxicity comes after a few weeks (on low fat game) then the
northern areas like "Germany, France" are only inhabitable in winters *if*
there is high fat game. This is not so probable in a thermal.
All the other hunters like germanes, celtics were neolithical people with a
grain stock. Even mesolithical prople (thermal from 10000 to 5000bc) used
loads of hazelnuts.
In short: humans live in such northern areas only due to agriculture or in a
glaciation, where animals are exceptionally fat (mammals and fish).
Main evolution area *is* the african savannah.
> It's easy for him to muddy the issue by stating
>that it's possible to get all the "essential" amino acids from vegetable
>sources, and ignore the fact that grains and legumes were virtually
>unavailable.
The essential amino acids, generally protein is no problem of paleo times.
The one paleo times bottleneck is food *energy*.
This applies to plants and animals.
>Further, such veggie sources that WERE available would have
>been of a wide variety, but it would seem unlikely that there would often
>have been a sufficient smorgasbord at most times and in most places to
>make a vegetarian diet remotely possible for more than very brief periods
>(if at all).
You aren't comeing from a steppe or a thundra or a texan grassland, do you?
A savannah is, what east africa looked like in the ice ages *in* times of
glaciation. This is the place where all the australopithecines, erectines
and homo sapiens sapiens came from.
If there is an area we *are* adapted to - that's it.
It has trees, bushes and roots, tubers, shots.
These provide nutrient dense food items like nuts, tree fruit and tubers.
Of course you can find areas (like steppe) with limited plant resources and
there *are* areas with fatty animals. In the north.
>
>OTOH, despite all his comments about "protein toxicity," and unassailable
>megafauna, it's pretty easy to come up with a reasonable diet rich in
>animal foods ranging from grubs, worms, insects, fish and other aquatic
>critters, all the way up to small and medium sized birds, mammals, and
>reptiles,
Shurely paleo people, hominids, hominoids, australopithecines did consume
worms grasshoppers...all that. No doubt.
As far as these are not fat they need a *big*...
>plus of course, a nice assortment of paleo fruits, nuts, and
>veggies as "side dishes..."
Well, side dishes? The minumum addition of calories to the kangaroo
doesn't look like a side dish. It looked to be much more.
Would *you* care to construct a possible paleo diet of *your* preference?
Possible in a ..... savannah over a million of years?
Without arrows, nets and fishhooks?
And if you use meat... please choose a wild game.
Might be interesting.
May i suggest NAT ( http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~food-lab/nat/mainnat.html )?
For exchange i attempt now a possible, plausible, probable vegetarian
paleo diet. Aiming for a 2600 kcal diet (adult man).
Version 1: nut +herb diet:
(i use walnut for one of many nuts growing there
and lambs lettuce for dark green leafy vegetables)
350g walnut and 250 g lambs lettuce
Item analysierte RDA percent fulfilled
--------------------------------------------------
Energie: 2479.1 kcal 2600.0 kcal 95
Eiweiss: 55.3 g 55.0 g 100 =protein
Fett: 221.5 g 75.5 g 293 =fat
Kohlenhydrate: 41.0 g 408.0 g 10
mehrf. ung. FS: 135.0 g 10.0 g 1350 =polyunsaturated FA
Ballaststoffe: 21.9 g 30.0 g 73 =Fiber
Natrium: 20.5 mg 2000.0 mg 1
Kalium: 2870.0 mg 3500.0 mg 82
Magnesium: 487.5 mg 350.0 mg 139
Calcium: 390.0 mg 800.0 mg 49
Phosphor: 1522.5 mg 800.0 mg 190
Eisen: 13.8 mg 12.0 mg 115 =iron
Zink: 10.8 mg 15.0 mg 72
Vit. A: 1603.5 µg 1000.0 µg 160
Vit. E: 23.2 mg 12.0 mg 193
Folsäure: 249.6 µg 160.0 µg 156
Vit. B1: 1.4 mg 1.4 mg 98
Vit. B2: 0.6 mg 1.7 mg 36
Vit. B6: 3.3 mg 1.8 mg 183
Vit. C: 85.5 mg 75.0 mg 114
Version 2: fruit diet (will need loads) I choose:
grams kcal
Avocado frisch 500 1061.0
Passionsfrucht (Maracuja) 1000 509.6
Orange frisch 1100 536.8
elderberry frisch 20 8.4
Banana frisch 500 439.0
Figs frisch 100 66.5
results:
Item analysierte RDA Percent
-------------------------------------------------
Energie: 2621.3 kcal 2600.0 kcal 101
Eiweiss: 53.3 g 55.0 g 97
Fett: 110.7 g 75.5 g 147
Kohlenhydrate: 294.2 g 408.0 g 72
mehrf. ung. FS: 14.0 g 10.0 g 140
Ballaststoffe: 213.3 g 30.0 g 711
Natrium: 324.2 mg 2000.0 mg 16
Kalium: 10190.0 mg 3500.0 mg 291
Magnesium: 930.4 mg 350.0 mg 266
Calcium: 747.0 mg 800.0 mg 93
Phosphor: 1175.4 mg 800.0 mg 147
Eisen: 22.8 mg 12.0 mg 190
Zink: 7.4 mg 15.0 mg 50
Vit. A: 845.0 µg 1000.0 µg 85
Vit. E: 19.6 mg 12.0 mg 164
Folsäure: 732.4 µg 160.0 µg 458
Vit. B1: 1.9 mg 1.4 mg 135
Vit. B2: 2.7 mg 1.7 mg 159
Vit. B6: 9.3 mg 1.8 mg 515
Vit. C: 922.5 mg 75.0 mg 1230
Version 3: Tuber diet:
For lack of data on the 41 available savannah tubers i use a mix
of known tubers (potatoe, sweetpotatoe,salsify), each 1 kg.
Item analysiert RDA percent
-------------------------------------------------
Energie: 2562.2 kcal 2600.0 kcal 99
Eiweiss: 52.5 g 55.0 g 95
Fett: 11.0 g 75.5 g 15
Kohlenhydrate: 523.5 g 408.0 g 128
mehrf. ung. FS: 4.9 g 10.0 g 49
Ballaststoffe: 143.5 g 30.0 g 478
Natrium: 120.0 mg 2000.0 mg 6
Kalium: 11690.0 mg 3500.0 mg 334
Magnesium: 640.0 mg 350.0 mg 183
Calcium: 840.0 mg 800.0 mg 105
Phosphor: 1640.0 mg 800.0 mg 205
Eisen: 39.1 mg 12.0 mg 326
Zink: 8.1 mg 15.0 mg 54
Vit. A: 6710.0 µg 1000.0 µg 671
Vit. E: 100.9 mg 12.0 mg 841
Folsäure: 567.2 µg 160.0 µg 355
Vit. B1: 3.1 mg 1.4 mg 219
Vit. B2: 1.4 mg 1.7 mg 82
Vit. B6: 5.9 mg 1.8 mg 326
Vit. C: 427.5 mg 75.0 mg 570
Actual paleodiet IMO: a mix of version 1 to 3 from time to time /season to
season. Plus some grasshoppers/maggots/reptiles...
Now... your turn.
Amadeus
(Of cause you feel secure from my bite, because you know I'm vegetarian)
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