Jan ha inviate aqueste nota a nos:
>From: Jan =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C5rmann?= <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Nove parolas in interlingua; studio linguistic
>X-cc: Anne =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=FCrgi?= <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>
>Salute!
>
>Io sovente sta in contacto con Anne B|rgi qui nunc continua su studios
>linguistic pro acquirer un doctorato in iste campo. Alcunos de nos,
>Ingvar S. e Ensjo, ha me questioante si Anne poterea esser disponibile
>pro nos a adjutar con problemas linguistic e forsan participar in le
>Commission linguistic (Ferenc Jeszenszky). Illa ha hodie respondite.
>
>[Anne]
>
>Tu pote dar iste responsa a Ingvar e a altere personas si tu lo vole: Lo
>
>que io pote acceptar, es de adjutar quando il ha un problema linguistic.
>
>In le caso del parolas "aqui, aqueste...", un studio etymologic es
>totalmente inutile. Il se carga de un question grammatical, que debe
>esser tractate secundo le principios morphosyntaxic. Mi responsa es
>clar:
>tal parolas son inutile e, lo que es pejor, illos va debilitar
>interlingua in creante un variation in le morphemos grammatical.
>Il ha duo "inimicos" interne a un lingua auxiliar: variation de
>morphemos grammatical, e variation de pronunciation.
STAN:
Aquelle remarcas es multo "authoritative" mais io cognosce necun ration
super que illa basa su remarcas. In varie linguas romance nos nota le
existentia de formas parallel in le mesme lingua, como
"ast" e "acest" in Romanian, "aquest" e "este" in certe dialectos de
catalano, "aqueste" e "este" in Espaniol in le Etate Auree de Hispania.
ILLE = pronomine personal mascule e ILLE = demonstrativo in interlingua.
SED, e MA e MAIS in interlingua....
>
>[Jan, re participation de Anne in le Commission linguistic]
>
>> Io crede que Ferenc Jeszenszky va remaner in le comission (il es le
>> singule ora). Io ha trovate Ferenc (e su sposa) multo sympathic e
>> amabile.
>
>[Anne]
>
>Io crede totevia que illo non es utile de haber un comission linguistic
>permanente.
>
>[Jan]
>
>Io lege hodie que Ensjo ha interrogate Mario si il serea possibile a
>aperir un foro pro experimentatores ("aquetistas") in su dominio. Io
>attende con sperantia un responsa positive e que le foro habera pauc
>abonatos.
>
>Amicalmente
>
>Jan
>
>--
>Jan Ermann/Jan Armann
>Generalsgatan 12 E; S-903 36 UMEE/UMEA, Sverige (Sweden)
>Tel & Fax +46 (0)90771525; e-mail:
>[log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask];
>[log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
>ICQ - UIN nr:785745;
>http://www.algonet.se/~armann
Rememora Jan, que Dr. Gode diceva que le realitate objective de un
vocabulario international es le cosa importante, e que le IALA esseva
preparate a cambiar su position quando evidentia existe que su methodos
ha fallite de discoperir aquelle realitate. Il es melior a monstrar le
tolerantia e lassa le selection natural prende su curso que a introducer
attitudes subjective, authoritative (in le senso arbitrari), que pote
devenir divisive e inutile.
Io ora monstra vos un littera de un linguista catalan a sci.lang:
From: [log in to unmask] (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
To: STAN MULAIK <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: aquella, aquest
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:59:05 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Stan,
>Assi mi question: Proque existe "aquest" e "este" ancora in le catalano,
>e in romaniano "asta" e "acesta"? Io imagina que un tendentia al
>brevitate esseva le base pro le perdita de "aqueste" e "aquesse" in
>espaniol in favor de "este" e "esse". Del altere latere, "aquelle"
>superviveva proque in initial disveloppamentos le *accu+ille esseva
>necesse de distinguer del usage de "ille" pro le pronomine mascule.
>Ha il un subtile differentia in usage inter "aquest" e "este" in
>Catalano que mantene lor usage? Ha vos alcun sapientia super le
>romaniano?
In standard Catalan, and West Catalan (Lleidata`) as I speak it, the
form "est(e)" does not exist. We have:
WCat ECat
aquest /aket/ /@kEt/
aquesta /akestE/ /@kEst@/
aquests /akets/ /@kEts/ /@kEstus/
aquestes /akestes/ /@kEst@s/
The form <est(e)> is limited to Valencian, which, unlike Std.
Catalan, also has a 3-way distinction in the demonstratives (1p., 2p.
and 2p. deixis). The Valencian dem.pn's are:
I II III
masc. est, este, aquest eix, eixe, aqueix aquell
fem. esta, aquesta eixa, aqueixa aquella
m.pl. estos, aquestos eixos, aqueixos aquells
f.pl. estes, aquestes eixes, aqueixes aquelles
This is also the Old Catalan system. As far as I know, there is no
difference in meaning or use between est(e) and aquest in Valencian,
except that est(e) is much more common.
As to Romanian, all I know is that the short forms are only used as
colloquial variants of the emphatic form of the demonstrative:
[unmarked (attributive) forms:]
acest om pl. aceSti oameni
acel om acei oameni
aceast@ fat@ pl. aceste fete
acea fat@ acele fete
[emphatic (pronominal) forms:]
omul acesta [@sta] pl. oamenii aceStia [@Stia]
omul acela oamenii aceia
fata aceasta [asta] pl. fetele acestea [astea]
fata aceea fetele acelea
(pronominal use as in <asta e> "this is", etc.).
I'm not sure if these colloquial variants continue ISTE directly, or
if they are secondarily shortened forms of ACCU-ISTE (the a- makes me
suspect the latter).
Cheers,
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
[log in to unmask]
Amsterdam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Stan Mulaik
|
