European Union/ACP Courier Magazine's Exclusive Interview With President
Jammeh



Gambia Radio & TV News (Banjul)

INTERVIEW
August 20, 2001
Posted to the web August 21, 2001

Mamadou Tangara & Marcel L. Thomasi
Banjul

GAMBIA RADIO & TELEVISION SERVICES IS REPRODUCING, WITH PERMISSION FROM THE
EUROPEAN UNION, THE FOLLOWING EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW HELD BY THE ACP-EU COURIER
WITH THE GAMBIAN PRESIDENT.

Exclusive Interview with His Excellency Dr Alhaji Yahya A.J.J. Jammeh,
President of the Republic of The Gambia at The State House, Banjul, Republic
of the Gambia.

Question 1: Your Excellency what do you consider to be the major
achievements of your Government since you took over the reins of power on
the 22nd of July 1994 and which achievements are you particularly satisfied
with?

JAMMEH: We have major achievements that are interlinked; inter-dependent in
the sense that you cannot have one without the other. The major achievements
as far as I am concerned are in the Education and Health sectors because an
ignorant nation cannot survive and a sick nation can never hope to develop
in this new millennium. The basic problem of Africa today stems from
ignorance and if you want to develop Africa and get rid of all the
unnecessary conflicts you have to get rid of the recipe for such which is
ignorance, therefore we have to educate the people. So we have succeeded in
providing a University, which is accessible to all Gambians. We have also
built secondary, junior and primary schools in almost all over the country
to ensure that as many children as possible go to school under the control
of their parents. This has significantly increased the number of girls going
to school especially in the rural areas. Now that the girl child can go to
school from primary to high school in the same locality and only leave her
area to go to University or take up a job in the urban areas, parents are
willing to send their girl child to school. That is one major achievement.
The other is in the Health sector. There are now more than 250 doctors in
the country to serve every Gambian.

Coming back to your second question, I am satisfied with the achievements we
have been making in Agriculture, but at this point in time we have not yet
achieved what I envisaged, that is, not only food self-suffiency but also
engaging in the export market. There is no reason why we should not export
certain commodities. I am satisfied with the progress but we have not yet
reached our objective. That is why we are focusing attention on the
Agricultural sector because if we have a well fed, well educated and healthy
nation, the sky would be the limit for The Gambia's socio-economic
development.

Question 2: Poverty reduction is the central objective of the New ACP-EU
partnership agreement. What is your Government doing to fight poverty and
prevent the poor from being left aside in the development process?

JAMMEH: That is a very interesting and important question. My government is
first of all educating the people to be aware of poverty and how to get rid
of poverty. Poverty can be overcome in this country if all of us are bent on
getting rid of it. No matter what programme the EU and The Gambia have, if
the people themselves are not aware of what they are supposed to do there is
no way we can fight poverty effectively. We are educating the people to be
aware of the roles they have to play. We cannot sit in our "bantabas"
(meeting place) and expect biblical manna to fall from heaven. We have to
get the people back to the land, to the sea or to whatever area they think
they would be able to earn a living.

The people have to be involved in poverty eradication, but they have to know
what poverty is all about, and how to get rid of it. No matter how much
resources are put into poverty eradication either by the Government alone or
by the Government and the EU, if the people decide not to work, there is no
way you can get rid of poverty. Just look at the informal sector in this
country most of the operators are non-Gambians, most of the businesses
(stalls at the market, retail shops) are owned by foreigners. The only
Gambians you find in this sector are women. Fisheries is a highly revenue
generating activity but 98% of the fishermen are non-Gambians while the
youth of this nation sit waiting for government to come and assist them. So
I am telling Gambians that instead of leaving the sector to foreigners, we
Gambians should exploit our resources and sell them to the outside world
rather than allowing others to enrich themselves.

The resources belong to us. The foreigners will come and start from small
ventures that would grow into a big importing and exporting business while
Gambians are waiting for Government to come to their rescue or uncles to
send them to Europe. We are educating the youth to be more involved and to
know what it takes to build a country. It is not merely sitting down and
shouting a Party's slogan that makes you a patriotic citizen. You must be
independent, self-reliant and it is only in this way that we can ensure
democracy. On a personal note my Foundation is helping those who are
involved in sustainable and self-created employment. But as I said,
ignorance is the main problem. We have certain socio-cultural values and
negative traditional beliefs that are inimical to socio-economic
development. One would prefer sitting-down rather than becoming the
apprentice of a blacksmith because it is taboo, but that has not prevented
one eating from the cooking pot that was made by the blacksmith. Ignorance
is the biggest enemy of Africa. Once we overcome ignorance through
education, really we will realise rapid socio-economic development.

Question 3: There is much talk about "transforming The Gambia into a
financial centre, tourist paradise, a trading, export oriented, agricultural
and manufacturing nation, thriving on free market polices and a vibrant
private sector, sustained by a well educated, trained, skilled, healthy
self-reliant and enterprising population and guaranteeing a well balanced
ecosystem and a decent standard of living for one and all under a system of
Government based on the consent of the citizenry (1996)." This goes beyond
making the Gambia the Singapore of West Africa (1963).

How far has your Government gone in laying the foundation that would make
The Gambia "a highly developed model country " after only five years since
you embarked on the MISSION?

JAMMEH: We have laid a solid foundation with the establishment of the
University of the Gambia. Remember the emphasis is placed on highly educated
citizens and you need a highly educated nation to be able to achieve Vision
2020. There is also the Medical School of the University of the Gambia,
because basically 99% of the medical specialists are non-Gambians. Putting
up the University of the Gambia is a sine qua non for achieving Vision 2020.
Certainly without the University Vision 2020 will be a tall order. We are
also making sure that the curriculum is relevant to our socio-economic
development. Also coming up is the Law School of the University of The
Gambia. 98% of the Judiciary are non-Gambians.

The foundation for a highly developed nation is to ensure that the laws are
indigenous laws, enforced by indigenous people with whom we share the same
culture. We have to ensure that we are independent because The Gambia cannot
sustain hiring foreign experts, although most of them are here on technical
assistance. Also do remember that we live in a global village and priorities
change. Imagine that these countries are hit with economic difficulties and
they can no longer send experts to The Gambia then suddenly you realise your
inadequacy in terms of local expertise. How can you then achieve your
objectives? We are convinced that with knowledge and self-confidence and
hard work we will slowly but surely reach our targets. If you compare The
Gambia today and five years ago, you will see lots of difference. There are
lots of infrastructural developments. When we started talking about the
Kombo Coastal roads people said it was a chimerical idea. But it is a
reality today. What is important for The Gambia is not to set up dreams but
to realise dreams. In fact Africans in general and Gambians in particular
are tired of promises. They do not want anyone to come and tell them that
the moon is made of green cheese. They want to see action taken.

To achieve Vision 2020 without the infrastructural development would be a
futile exercise. The building of road networks is high on the agenda because
without communication there is no development. This millennium will be a
highly technical one and without education you are bound to lag behind.
High-tech is indispensable and The Gambia is not an Island. The longest
journey starts with one step and we have taken a giant step by establishing
the University of The Gambia that will ensure the realisation of this noble
Vision 2020. It is not a tall order as such. For me the sky is the limit and
it depends how high you can jump. If Japan, Taiwan and Singapore can do it
why not The Gambia? It is up to us to buckle up and work for it. Nothing is
unachievable in this world as long as there is the will.

Question 4: How does your Government perceive the European Community as a
partner in development cooperation? Or more broadly speaking, do you think
that ACP and EU countries are ideally suited partners in trade and
development?

JAMMEH: Yes, I believe that the European Union has a role to play in ACP
countries because they were the colonial masters of those countries. There
are cultural similarities which make them understand Africa better than any
other person outside the EU. They have been in Africa so long that they
understand better Africa's problems. They know the constraints of Africa and
they are better suited to help the ACPs to solve their economic problems.
They are very important partners as far The Gambia's and Africa's
socio-economic development are concerned. It is really not possible today
for any country to operate in isolation whether mineral or oil rich
countries. The Europeans know the problems, some of which they created and
left with us. Some of the problems we created ourselves. So if we can sit
down together and map out strategies to circumvent the problems then we can
solve them together. Europe owes it to us to help us develop and we owe it
to Europe to work with them and appreciate what they are doing. After all
they have come back to assist us in our development process.

They could have said after all you fought for independence so now you must
take care alone of your problems. We have a long way to go. The partnership
is here to last but we Africans have to take the lead in developing Africa.
So Africans should not blackmail Europe and depend entirely on European's
assistance. The EU's efforts should be complementary to our own efforts
rather than our efforts being complementary to that of Europe. In the final
analysis, however, it is the ACPs that are responsible for their
socio-economic development. I believe we should take the lead.

Question 5: What then is your assessment of The Gambia-EU Cooperation?

JAMMEH: I saw a car for the first time thanks to the EU. I will you tell
how. The EDF feeder roads project first brought a motorable road to my
village. The government could not do it even after more than 10 years of
independence. With EU assistance it is now possible to visit the northern
part of the country without any problem. The EU has sponsored very important
projects in this country: the feeder roads, environment, education and
fisheries projects and they have even been involved in building classrooms.
In fact, some of the past projects that were featured in the numerous
unfulfilled five-year development plans were entirely sponsored by the EU.
Gambians owe a lot of gratitude to the EU because most of the infrastructure
in this country ranging from fisheries to agriculture and roads are entirely
funded by the EU. So really in spite of the problem my government had with
the EU before, I still respect them. I cannot imagine what The Gambia would
have been without the EU.

Question 6: Nowadays, many people in Europe are questioning the efficiency
of development assistance. They are arguing that over the past five decades
little has been achieved in terms of sustainable development. What is your
view?

JAMMEH: I have a view contrary to those sceptics but I will not blame them.
In most cases projects and infrastructures that were realised through EU
assistance were destroyed in one day due to unnecessary fighting; to wars
based on tribes, mineral resources; wars masterminded by blood thirsty
leaders killing women and children. How do you expect those countries to
understand that what takes five years to build only takes five minutes to
blow up?

Talking about the aid fatigue, I can understand, to some extent, the
sceptics. You sit down and you expect the EU to come and do everything for
you. Many wars have been fought in Africa since World War II. We cannot even
develop the territory within our borders and we are fighting for more
territory: does it make sense?

At least young Africans are seeing that fighting does not make any sense;
that tribes do not matter just as the colour of your eyes. I have nothing
against old politicians but they used tribalism and favouritism to
perpetuate themselves in power. There are instances where EU funds were
misused. Of course EU taxpayers money has been used for projects, which were
doomed to fail in the first instance, and then we blame it on the Europeans.
The projects fail because politicians were greedy. This is why in those days
the EU will give you aid without stiff conditions, but today before they
give you anything they have to drill you and put the project under the
microscope. Some of us do not like it, because we are action-oriented, but
we understand it because they have had a bad experience in the past.

Question 7: There is much talk these days about the difficulty of stamping
out corruption and one of the major innovations of the new ACP-EU agreement
aims to explicitly address corruption. What can you tell those who believe
that it is still rampant?

JAMMEH: Corruption is a state of the mind.

EU:- Do you want to be more specific?

JAMMEH: I can be specific. It is still a consequence of ignorance.
Unfortunately today in Africa, you are held in high esteem because of the
amount of wealth you have and the people tend to worship you because they
wish they could be like you. So it is this unnecessary competition to be
somebody that leads to corruption. Unfortunately people think the only way
to be somebody is to be rich and for some people they will do everything to
be somebody and when they get access to funds that belong to everybody, they
will decide to make use of those funds to the detriment of everybody.

Materialism replaced morality. And in those days for you to be morally
upright you must be materially very rich. They turned the state upside-down.
And remember 30 years of corruption and nepotism cannot be wiped out in five
years. Because instead of educating the people to be conscious, enlightening
them to know what is right and what is wrong, they decided to uneducate,
mislead and misguide the people. It came to a stage where if you were not
corrupt your people will say that you have no "faida": you are aimless.
Everybody is becoming rich and you can hardly give enough "fish money". We
even reached a stage where if you are not corrupt and you do not have money,
you are taken to be a fool and for you to be there and get respected you
have to be corrupt. In this country we came to a stage where if you do not
embezzle money and get away with it you are not brave. So bravery was
measured with the amount of money you could embezzle and got away with. And
this lasted for 30 years. To say that there is no corruption would be wrong,
but it has not reached the scale where it used to be. That is why we are
continuing with the Commissions of Enquiry because that is the only way we
can stamp corruption out. We asked the culprits to give us back what they
have stolen. We take back what was stolen and turn it into a loan with 25%
interest.

Corruption is a reality and this is the biggest enemy of development in
Africa. It is the tsetse fly that gives the donors sleeping sickness and we
call it donors' fatigue. Corruption is a problem but corruption is the
consequence of massive ignorance. So leaders plunge their people into
ignorance in order for them to survive politically at the expense of their
own people, to the detriment of Africa. It is a sad reality and it is the
responsibility of all young Africans to refuse and fight corruption. The
younger generation bear the burden of wars, unemployment, corruption,
deprivation and poverty. So the younger generation must understand that it
is more dignifying to become rich with our own sweat than to become rich
very fast and end up very poor for the rest of our life.

The first time I mentioned it they laughed, but the second time they knew I
was serious. I said we must go to the United Nations to pass a resolution
that will make it illegal for any Western country to accept money from
anybody holding political office in Africa without justifying how he got the
money. And those who have money there should be exposed and asked to defend
how they got that money. They thought I was a crazy young man. So the last
time I mentioned it I asked the UN once again to pass that resolution not
only for Africa but also for the whole world because corruption is a recipe
for violence. Where there is corruption, there is deprivation and
marginalisation that could lead to a revolt. The UN is yet to respond, but I
will continue my crusade. I am the lone voice and I am seen as a young
troublemaker. I am not a troublemaker, but as an African it saddens me that
the name of Africa is synonymous with poverty, backwardness, HIV Aids, wars
and refugee camps, despite the fact that up to today Africa is the richest
country in terms of natural resources. Unless we fight corruption these
resources will benefit few people in the continent and a lot of people
outside Africa to the detriment of the masses. Corruption is a reality and
in The Gambia we are fighting it tooth and nail. It is a difficult fight but
we will not give up. If we overcome it, Africa will emerge as a dignified
continent.

Question 8: From what we gather your image in the country is rather very
positive. Can we describe you as a leader that listens to his people?

JAMMEH: Yes, I am a leader servant because I am a servant of the people. I
live and work for the people and whatever I do, I do it with the consent of
the people. I want to solve their problems and I cannot know the problems of
my people without listening to them. That is why it is mandatory based on
the Constitution for the President to tour the country twice a year to see
for himself the state of projects, to meet the citizens and to learn about
their constraints and see how far some of these problems have been solved.
It is because of the people that I am here so I have to listen to them.

Question 9: How do you feel about the role of the opposition in Africa in
general and The Gambia in particular?

JAMMEH: The opposition can be an effective and key partner in development
with the ruling party and government. If we are all yearning for the
development of the country, no matter who is at the helm of the nation, we
shall all strive to develop the nation and create the conducive environment
for development. I will assist you so that we reach our common objective:
the development of the country. If our objective is to oppose a government
because the government is not delivering that is a positive move. The aim of
the opposition is not to destroy the little that the people have by
instigating violence or treating government in contempt or even
personalising issues. The office is bigger than Yahya Jammeh (my humble
self). But unfortunately, you have particular parties whose campaign is
based on tribe because they believe a particular tribe should rule a
country. They develop so much hatred against government that whatever
government does is bad. It goes up to a point that they have personalised
their agenda. The opposition should put pressure on government to deliver
but not to pose themselves as enemies of the ruling party. Whenever the
government is dragging its feet the opposition has to put pressure on
government to fulfil their promises to implement projects leading to
socio-economic development. The opposition can be a good catalyst for
socio-economic development.

In Africa it is taboo to sit with the one who emerges as winner. It is
unfortunate. What has happened in America is edifying. Can you imagine what
has happened in America happening in Africa? They would have burnt the whole
place. Unfortunately the opposition so badly plays its role that it will
force the government to act in such a way that people outside Africa will
believe that government is intolerant. The government has the responsibility
to ensure peace, security and stability. It is not mentioned in any
democratic book that because you are in the opposition you should insult or
create havoc in order to tarnish the image of government or that a
particular tribe should rule a country. The leader should be the expression
of the popular will and consent. It is unfortunate too that people outside
Africa are not helping democracy. The West never compromises peace, security
and stability; they will quell anything which jeopardizes the peace and
stability of their country. In the West they will call it security measures,
in Africa human rights violations.

We have to understand that each time we burn our place, country, Africa we
go to somebody else's country and become the laughing stock, refugees and
get only what the indigenous people do not want. Whether we belong to the
opposition or the ruling party we have to understand that to solve our
economic backwardness we have to work together as citizens of this country,
of Africa and only we Africans can change the negative image that Africa has
around the world.

It is sad to see Africans using the western media to insult their leaders in
order to entertain their mentors. But do you think you can gain their
respect by insulting your own people and your leaders? We Africans have to
understand that The Gambia's interest, Africa's interest supersedes
everything else. We should do nothing that will undermine the peace and
stability of The Gambia and Africa. The irony of the situation is that we
contribute to other people's development but not to our own.

Question 10: But the opposition considers that democracy is not working well
in the Gambia. What are they blaming you for?

JAMMEH: They are blaming me for making an effort to provide the people of
this country with what they need to the extent that they will have nothing
to talk about. They are blaming me because I am in a place where they think
they should be. What are they complaining about? The mere fact that they are
insulting me and getting away with it means that there is democracy, freedom
of expression and tolerance. We used to have two newspapers and they could
not say a quarter of what the five/six newspapers are saying today. I do not
know what kind of democracy they want? These political leaders are here
thanks to my being a democratic leader. As I said the problem with Africa is
if I am not there, nobody should be there. In fact not all political parties
are blaming me, say one particular party. You have to understand that some
are entertainers and the noise they make enable them to get some money from
some Western organisation. So they have to justify their existence. If they
do not make noise they will not get their "fish money'. That is how their
parties survive and that is how they get sponsorship. Some want Western
visas, especially American visas (laugh).

Question 11: Under your leadership, The Gambia has regained the confidence
of the International Community and Donors. How can you explain this positive
reversal of the situation?

JAMMEH: Because the International Community with which we had lots of
difficulties at the beginning has come to realise that I meant what I told
them when I took over. I am here just to defend the interest of the people
and to bring about development, to change the negative image of the country.
We are a new trend of leaders, servants of their people. We are here to
deliver and not to take away from the people and having seen for themselves
the progress registered, they started to change their attitude. We are here
for the positive development of the country. They know we are sincere in
what we are saying. Of course you know a good athlete not only from his
physique but from his performance as well

Question 12: The Gambia is playing a vital role in ensuring stability in the
sub-region and I understand that plans are underway to establish a regional
office in The Gambia for the network of ECOWAS conflict prevention and
resolution. What are the hot spots that you will focus on in the months
ahead?

JAMMEH: Well unfortunately we still have this tragic war in Sierra Leone and
when we thought we had seen a light at the end of the tunnel, there came the
Mano River conflict in Guinea and The Gambia is interdependent with these
countries concerned. What affects a country directly affects others
indirectly. Remember that The Gambia used to re-export to Guinea, Sierra
Leone and other countries in the sub-region. The situation in Guinea and
Sierra Leone seriously affects the economy of The Gambia. Even if it has not
affected our socio-economic development, war is unacceptable in our
immediate sub-region. In any war innocent people get killed. They pay the
price for the intolerance of leaders. In the war in Sierra Leone, children
have been trained to become brutal killers and in the process they are made
to believe that human life is just for fun. The areas we are focusing on are
the trouble spots, areas of wars and areas of potential conflicts. Of course
looking closer home, there is the Casamance problem. It is escalating to a
point where Guinea-Bissau is getting involved in the war. Where does that
lead us? So we have to focus our attention on all the hot spots and get rid
of all the unnecessary conflicts for we believe in peace. Rather than
solving problems, war creates more problems. Only human beings can make this
world a better place to live in. Unfortunately despite all our technological
advances and know-how, we are making this world a worst place to live in. I
am convinced that peace and stability are the prerequisites for any
development. This is why conflict prevention conflict and peace building are
high on our agenda.

Question 13: You are working hard to strengthen your ties with Senegal; what
do you find to be the major constraints?

JAMMEH: There is no major constraint. Following my recent visit to Senegal
at the invitation of President Wade, both parties have dispelled all clouds
of misunderstanding hanging over The Gambia and Senegal. The Gambia is the
single biggest contributor to the Senegalese economy in the whole of the
African continent. For the past seven years, all our multi million-dollar
contracts such as the new Airport, Farafenni Hospital, the Kerewan Bridge,
Banjul Roads, Farafenni-Kerewan Roads, the Coastal Roads have been awarded
to Senegalese companies. There are more than 350,000 Senegalese living in
this country and they have been exempted from paying alien's certificate. I
have put my personal resources and Gambia government resources to almost
bring to an end the conflict in Casamance. We had come to a situation which
for the first time since 1980 all the parties were able to campaign
peacefully in Casamance largely due to Gambia's efforts. The Gambia and
Senegal are condemned by history to live together, but in the case of
Casamance we have been accused all along.

Gambia's position must be understood. As a guarantor to the peace process,
we need a mandate from both sides to continue mediating between the two
parties. Since I have been given the mandate I will do my best to solve the
problem, to continue to mediate. Had we continued with the Banjul Peace
Talks we would have been thinking by now about the rehabilitation and
redeployment of the members of the disbanded Casamance Separatist Movement
into civil life. All we want to see is an end to the war so that we can all
live in peace.

If those who partitioned Africa by creating these borders can come together
and form a solid union with common policies, what are Africans waiting for?
Now in Africa, we ought to pool our efforts together to fight
under-development rather than fighting over territories. I think as leaders
the best way we can help each other is to be genuine to each other. For us
to be friends and trust each other we have to tell each other the truth
rather than praising each other.

Question 14: The Gambia has privileged ties with some Arab countries. How
supportive are they to the Gambia's development process? How important is
Islam to the Gambia?

JAMMEH: We have very good relations with all the Arab countries except Iraq.
Unfortunately, we do not have good relations with Iraq because of our
principled stance in support of justice but we have excellent relations with
the entire Arab world and the non-Arab world. It will be wrong to believe
that because we have excellent relations with a particular country, The
Gambia is benefiting a lot from that relationship. Contrary to what people
might believe there are only one or two Arab countries which are exceptional
and that can be compared to Western countries in providing assistance to The
Gambia. If they deem it necessary to assist us, it is all well and good. We
have other non-Muslim friends that help us. Some countries that are not our
best friends are helping us more than others.

To the second part of your question, Islam is very important to the country
and likewise Christianity. I believe that religion is good for mankind,
because it is only through religion that the fear of the Almighty God can be
inculcated in human beings so that people are prevented from doing evil. So
it is not only Islam per se, but religion is very important in this country
or any country and for any individual for that matter. Religion imposes
self-restraint, self-discipline and inculcates the values of honesty and
modesty whether you are a Christian or a Muslim. So all religions are
important as long as we believe in one God and follow the words of God. Our
relationship with Arab countries is not based on Islam. Islam is very
important in this country because Muslims are the majority. This does not
mean other religions are not important. Every religion is important. Our
friendly relationship with Arab States is not based on what we can get from
them or Islam. After all Islam belongs to all of us. It is a universal
religion not the property of the Arabs.

Question 15: Finally, how would you sum up the way forward for the Gambia-EU
Cooperation in the light of the Cotonou Agreement?

JAMMEH: It augurs a bright future for both ACP-EU and I believe we have an
opportunity to prove all the sceptics in Europe wrong. The performance
dimension is important because we can clearly show our people and European
taxpayers the fruits of our cooperation. We understand that the EC is
engaged in a reform of the management of development cooperation aid and I
think this will take care of the cumbersome procedures which action-oriented
leaders like myself find very tedious. I think it is a major achievement of
the post-Seattle era.



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