Kabir:

Many thanks for your well argued response.  The concerns you raised are
important.  However, the very nature of the issue under
discussion(covert military activity) does not lend itself to collecting
easily verifiable information. We must as a result work with incomplete
information/data and modify our conclusions according to new data.

Covert/clandestine military activity against a democratically elected
government will seldom be admitted to by states that sponsor or those so
sponsored. Granted you spoke to Kukoi's right hand man and that no
evidence in Kukoi's recovered brief case suggested a link to Libya.  But
these do not constitute primary data, at least as of now.  Thus, the
sources you cite are anecdotal/circumstantial at best. The benchmark for
primary data is higher.  There is no argument here.

Regarding Chester Crocker, I know his work well, his activities in
Africa and the context within which events in Angola, South Africa etc.,
took place. But must we dismiss his views and data just because he is
conservative?  Crocker's data have been confirmed and verified by others
to be good and plausible.  And I believe it is good data regardless of
his political leanings.  In fact, his data, however tainted, may be
better that our respective data combined.

Your interest in "correct" cataloguing of historical events" is
admirable, but it presupposes that you know and everyone knows the
"correct" data.  It also assumes that their is only one "correct"
version to the events of 1981 and the one you know is the "correct"
version.  Well, I can not make such a claim as I do not have complete
data/information.  Yet, the little we have point to Libyan involvement.
Until others, you or I come up with more compelling data, I will hold
this to be true.

Kabir, some historical events will always be contested and rightly so.
And this is very good for research.  Often, several narratives/versions
of an issue exist. For instance, did the Republicans in the USA steal
the 2000 presidential election or did George W. Bush win legitimately?
We are unlikely to know the answer to this question until future
researchers and the media look into it. We may not have to wait long for
an answer.

The spirit in which you have contested the 1981 issue is very healthy.
Yet, we must live with this (untenable) ambiguity until we have more of
the information to disprove or confirm my position.

And as you noted in your concluding paragraph, "this is one chapter that
is still open and I hope that one day all the facts about July '81 will
be known."  No argument here.  My sentiments exactly!  Thanks for the
discussion.

Regards,

Abdoulaye

Amadu Kabir Njie wrote:
>
> Dr. Saine,
>
> Thank you for the clarification; I did not know that the question of Libyan
> involvement in the events of July 1981 had been addressed by the old man
> during your discussions.
>
> I have had occasion to discuss Libyan involvement with Kukoi's right hand
> man, now in The Gambia, whiles in Tripoli and have spoken to different
> players and actors in the events of July '81 and arrived at the conclusion
> that Kukoi indeed received no training, logistical or financial support from
> Libya. It is however interesting to learn that Jawara has said that "Gaddafi
> jokingly admitted to having engineered the foiled coup".
>
> I am in no way trying to deny the well known fact that Gaddafi was behind
> many attempts to overthrow many African regimes that he deemed "reactionary"
> through sponsoring local dissidents. But the rule was that most of these
> dissidents were trained in Libya soil itself. It is difficult for me to
> recall any African country that would have, prior to July 1981, allowed it's
> soil to be used for such purposes, especially in our sub-region.
>
> As you may be aware, Kukoi's brief case was found after he fled The Gambia
> and even though there was evidence in it liking Pap Che Yassin Secka to the
> plot, nothing was found in it or revealed during his trial, or even during
> the interogation of those captured after the events, that pointed toward
> Libyan involvement. It must be remembered that this was a time of intesnse
> cold war intrigues and that it was fashionable to cry "wolf Gaddafi" by
> pro-western regimes whenever there was an attempt to overthrow them.
>
> Chester Crocker is a man whose testimony I would rather take with a pinch of
> salt. He is a known Right Wing hawk and I remember him most for being behind
> Regan's destructive strategy of "Constructive engagement" in Southern
> Africa, whose sole aim was to nuetralise any non-pro-western forces in the
> sub-region. He was practically obsessed by the Cuban presence in Angola and
> the CIA was at work in the whole of the continent, doing their utmost to
> sabotage all progressive African movements, including the ANC and SWAPO. He
> also master minded support for both Mobutu and Janas Savimbi who were both
> close allies of the earstwhile Apartheid regime.
>
> By and large, my interest in this topic: "Libyan involvement in the events
> of July '81" has more to do with the correct catalouging of historical
> events than with anything else. Indeed the only times I have staunchly
> supported Gaddafi's involvement in the internal affairs of other Africcan
> countries was during the Liberation struggles in South Africa and Namibia.
> Struggles which the Regan-Thacher duo did everything in their power to
> counter in the interest of wester imperialsm.
>
> But I guess this is one chapter that is still open and I hope that one day
> all the facts about July '81 will be known. Your efforts in that direction
> are of course well appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kabir.
>
> "Abdoulaye Saine" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Kabir Njie:
> >
> > Thank you for your insightful comments and kind words. The issues you
> > raised about Kukoi Samba Sanyang, Libya, myth creation and the 1981
> > aborted coup are very important indeed. These issues however, highlight,
> > a more important concern, that of insufficient research and data on this
> > important crisis. Except for Arnold Hughes', John Wiseman's and Sulayman
> > Nyang's published accounts and a chapter of my dissertation on this
> > episode, there is little data and information on the issue. A
> > pro-Government account, according to Hughes, by Swaebou Conateh(1982)and
> > a fictionalized account of life during the crisis by Nana Humasi (1987),
> > also exist on the 1981 putsch.  I did not see these and could not
> > comment on them. (Perhaps Mr. Conateh and others could comment on the
> > events of 1981).
> >
> > The lack of adequate data, however, does not necessarily suggest the
> > lack of Libyan involvement, but simply that data on covert intervention
> > by foreign leaders are hard to come by and difficult to substantiate
> > empirically.  Consequently, much of the data are anecdotal.  It would be
> > incorrect, therefore, to conclude as you did that "there is no evidence
> > to support Libyan sponsorship of July 1981."  The data may not be as
> > strong and compelling as most of us would wish, but there are data to
> > suggest Libyan involvement in the sub-region and The Gambia,
> > specifically.  Did some members of the former AFPRC kill Ousman "Korro"
> > Ceesay?  Did Yahya Jammeh give the order for the April 10 and 11
> > slaughter of innocent students?  You get the drift.
> >
> > In the 1980's in particular, Gaddafi engaged in what Chester Crocker, a
> > former Assistant Secretary of State for Africa, termed "Gaddafi's
> > Diplomacy of Subversion in Africa." Presidents Kountche of Niger,
> > Traore(Tarawalley)of Mali and Nimeiri of Sudan charged the Libyans with
> > attempts to overthrow their governments.  The Senegal and Gambia
> > governments also charged the Libyans with imprisoning their nationals
> > and putting them into military training against their wills to
> > destabilize their regimes.  Libya was also involved in Uganda in support
> > of Amin and Dr. Limman of Ghana also accused the Libyan leader of
> > subversion and expelled its diplomats. Without doubt, Libya's
> > intervention in Chad was the most dramatic.
> >
> > Consequently, in 1980 Senegal, Equatorial Guinea and The Gambia broke
> > diplomatic relations with Libya.  Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Nigeria and
> > Ghana expelled Libyan diplomats for subversion and in particular,
> > Libya's change of its embassies to Peoples' Bureaus.  Kenya  and the
> > former Upper Volta refused the establishment of these bureaus and Sudan
> > was convinced that Libya was responsible for a number of unsuccessful
> > coup attempts.
> >
> > It is against this backdrop of Libyan subversion in the sub-region and
> > perceived subversive activity in The Gambia, that led to the break of
> > diplomatic relations with Libya.  Thus, I am not convinced that the
> > "myth of Libyan involvement" is a myth in the first place,  nor was
> > it "concocted" by Sir Dawda.  He felt strongly about it and said in my
> > interview with him that Gaddafi jokingly admitted to having engineered
> > the foiled coup.
> >
> > I have no data to suggest that Kukoi set foot in Libya prior to 1981.
> > What many are convinced of is that Kukoi was one of many Gambians
> > trained by the Libyan leader in Libya or in neighboring African
> > countries where Gaddafi-sponsored dissidents undertook covert and
> > sometimes overt military action against targeted leaders and countries.
> > In fact Chester Crocker's testimony to The U.S. Senate Foreign Relations
> > Committee on July 8, 1981 presaged the events of July 30, 1981 in The
> > Gambia ( See West Africa, 20 July 1981, pp.1644-1646).
> >
> > The current state of the data at hand suggest Libyan involvement in the
> > 1981 foiled coup. I would agree with you that more data and studies on
> > the events of 1981 are needed, simply because the data are anecdotal.
> > We need more studies on the issue and my article was but a modest step
> > in that direction.
> >
> > Thanks for the comments and for helping me clarify the issue further.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Abdoulaye
> >
> > ka wrote:
> > >
> > > Abdoulaye Saine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > "...Thus, the aborted coup of 1981 was in many ways the brainchild of
> the
> > > Libyan leader who recruited and trained Kukoi Samba Sanyang, among
> others,
> > > to carry out the coup attempt.  Others would contend, however, that the
> > > aborted coup was the result of growing domestic inequalities.  To date,
> > > Kukoi is based in Libya, traveling incognito to Burkina Faso, The Gambia
> and
> > > neighboring Guinea-Bissau and Liberia..."
> > >
> > > Dr. saine,
> > >
> > > This is a very interesting piece and there have been varied reactions to
> it.
> > > Overall, I think it has catalouged many interesting developments in our
> > > recent political history. One point I cannot understand though is how
> "the
> > > aborted coup of 1981 was in many ways the brainchild of the Libyan
> leader
> > > who recruited and trained Kukoi Samba Sanyang, among others, to carry
> out
> > > the coup attempt"
> > >
> > > It is a known fact that although Kukoi constantly broadcast calls for
> help
> > > from Libya when it became apparent that senegal was going to intervene
> to
> > > try to crush the "coup", he, Kukoi had never set foot on Libyan soil
> prior
> > > to the 1981. Just a look at the primitive nature of the weapons used
> during
> > > the initial stage of the "coup" is one testimony that we had here to do
> with
> > > a single man's lust for power.
> > >
> > > The myth of Libyan involvement was something concocted and peddled by
> Jawara
> > > and his crew inorder to divert attention from the real causes behind the
> > > coup and why there was mass jubilation, i.e., mass corruption, neglect,
> etc.
> > >
> > > I only wish that Jawara himself could set the record straight here
> instead
> > > of letting the myth linger that Libya was behind July 1981. Of course, I
> > > agree with you that Kukoi did make contact with Libya whiles living in
> Cuba
> > > and eventually secured facilities there that were supposed to enhanced
> his
> > > second coming, there is no evidence to support libyan sponsorship of
> July
> > > 1981.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Kabir.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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