You are wholly right

Yes, lies, propaganda and obfuscation is no bed of roses.
 Those who work at the Ministry of Overseas development / old Colonial Office studied the Roman Empire…...

I notice that your reply was on my screen almost a soon as I had pushed the send button. How did you do that- by anticipating no substance coming your way from me?

I am not arguing a position or stuck in one. I am looking for a solution – from you, that will be acceptable to Mugabe and those who he will be negotiating with.

  I am very much interested in what you and others have to say and listen very attentively.
 I have not “ debunked” anything that I have said previously. OK Mugabe has had 17 if you will – years - enough time for three terms as president.
Of course he has the Constitutional means. 

Even at a negotiation you ought not underestimate anyone and when he says sign here, read the fine print.
 
I read the entire 2003 interview when you posted it a week ago and it’s clear, but the situation has changed since 2003 – the economy has deteriorated to the point where Mugabe can go on sticking to his guns until the people are pushed into embracing an alternative to their suffering – and this means a compromise. 
Did you read this:
http://zimbabweoutpostoftyranny.typepad.com/zimbabwe_outpost_of_tyran/2007/04/towards_a_negot_1.html

 We may leave this for a while and see what turns up the week after next?




> 
> From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: 2007/04/22 sö PM 03:58:38 CEST
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions
> 
> Do you really read anything of substance on the Zimbabwe crisis beyond the
> propaganda?
> 
> What preparation? ZANU-PF prepared for more than ten years, they were at
> least more prepared than their British counterparts from the looks of
> things.
> 
> The reason why I asked if you read anything of substance on Zimbabwe is
> statements like this:
> 
> "...I simply meant that Mugabe has ? and has had the constitutional means of
> passing any kind of legislation to repossess his farms, so what's been
> stopping him?..."
> 
> If you bothered to read the interview with David Hasluck who, I REPEAT was
> the Director of The [White] Commercial Farmers Union - or are really up to
> date about the Land Issue as you claim, you would have known the following
> which he repeated in the interview:
> 
> The issue became politicised and very entrenched. When the 2000
> constitutional referendum in which the amendments to the constitution and
> the provisions for the government to acquire land failed, the president
> said, "well, we will continue with our existing constitution".
> 
> But in April of that year, on the last day of parliament, they amended
> Provisions Section 16 that dealt with property, and said that rural
> agricultural land that was compulsorily acquired for resettlement would not
> be paid for. No compensation for the land but the government would pay for
> the improvements on the land. Compensation was the responsibility of the
> former colonial power, they said. And it comes back to my first point:
> "Because we believe that this land was taken from our forefathers without
> compensation and it was often violently, and there has been no recognition
> of this by the colonial power, the British must live with this
> responsibility."
> 
> Of course if you are not interested in the truth you would not be interested
> in what I have to say. The reason why you are jumping all over the place is
> that you don't have the facts to argue your position.
> 
> Go back and read before making unfounded claims. First it was Mugabe had 27
> years and should have carried out Land Reform long ago, when that was
> debunked you claimed he had constitutional means and did not use it, now
> that too has been debunked! What this tells me is that you are just sitting
> there googling and typing without any clue or perspective of what you are
> talking about.
> 
> ZANU-PF left no stone unturned in pursuit of a peaceful solution. Why do you
> think all the apologists of imperialism won't touch the issue with a
> ten-foot pole? Because none can honestly defend what they are claiming, thus
> the lies, propaganda and onfuscation.
> 
> Kabir.
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, your Excellency,
> > I am not your enemy.
> >
> > I would not have flouted any agreements unless 10 years But would have
> > been a much harder negotiator. It takes a lot of preparation to go to the
> > negotiating table. I don't know if you are in Sweden or Denmark or where,
> > but the Swedes go to negotiation backed by experts who have done their
> > homework for months: They put a tough team together. Some other counties are
> > less prepared at conferences etc, only getting there - sometimes- get there
> > to read a speech and so on. When Lancaster House talks took place there was
> > a lot of optimism in the air (not learned much from history) and a
> > willingness to make those concessions - and perhaps you too would have,
> > given such assurances.
> > Anyway, I'm more interested in what you have to say - the rhetoric- we
> > have some of that in common, but it doesn't get us very far does it?
> >
> > I get Google alerts for Gambia, Sierra Leone, and Zimbabwe among others:
> >
> >
> > http://zimbabweoutpostoftyranny.typepad.com/zimbabwe_outpost_of_tyran/2007/04/towards_a_negot_1.html
> >
> >
> > WE are all concerned about the plight of every single Zimbabwean -
> > including all those who have lost their lives and those battered and bruised
> > ones who still survive, hungry ?..
> >
> >
> > http://vikingpundit.blogspot.com/2007/04/eternal-scapegoat-as-zimbabwe-spirals.html
> >
> >
> > "to lay blame for the whole crisis, squarely at Britain's door" is one way
> > of looking at it. David Hasluck ? if he is one of the bishops, can also
> > blame it all on the devil as they usually do, as if they are not sometimes
> > acting on behalf of the evil one.
> >
> >
> > http://www.acton.org/blog/index.html?/archives/1620-Evangelical-Silence-and-Zimbabwe.html
> >
> > You saw how the Zimbabwean government showed its military might to
> > intimidate those who wanted to go on strike to demand a minimum wage? Yes he
> > can do that these days, mostly to his own, but never take off his gloves
> > when it comes to Downing Street.  He does enjoy repartee and they both speak
> > same language.
> >
> > I simply meant that Mugabe has ? and has had the constitutional means of
> > passing any kind of legislation to repossess his farms, so what's been
> > stopping him?
> > If Nigeria had found herself in the same situation as Zimbabwe, I think
> > that Sani Abacha would have announced one April Fools Day that all toubab
> > whose lives and farms were under his protection should report to the nearest
> > police station to sign over their illegal possessions or face the dire
> > consequences ? and Idi Amin would give them the alternative of flying or
> > swimming back home.
> >
> > If the very kind and nice Mugabe should have been reluctant to do it, he
> > could have allowed the army to take over, suspend the constitution and move
> > rapidly ? then it's all over?. Maybe  the British government would then
> > compensate their brothers for their losses  and that compensation money
> > could be used to re-possess what is re-possessable, though I suspect
> > that  black is black I want my country/ land  back means just that.
> > The above is a little extreme ? and some say that extreme measures are
> > demanded
> > I have a booklet in front of me: Nelson Mandela Speeches 1990 (a
> > Pathfinder publication):
> > http://www.amazon.com/Nelson-Mandela-Speeches-1990-Intensify/dp/0873485955
> >
> > Since the end of the 10 years moratorium, Mr. Mugabe has been anxious,
> > understandably, to finish the work of land reform and re-POSSESSION.
> > Some of the White farmers have obtained land holdings in far away places
> > like Nigeria:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1527207.stm
> >
> > So how does ending the sanctions restore some of the land (I know you are
> > going to shout ALL of the LAND) to the people?
> > South Africa has a programme where by 30% of the land will be
> > re-distributed over a number of years.
> > Your fear is that MDC= 10 Downing street ? but I think that all black
> > Zimbabweans would like to be masters  and if the government could enter into
> > negotiations once again, they could arrive at a solution. As things are now,
> > its seems that they would like to wait as Zimbabwe gets down to her knees,
> > economically almost beyond repair and to a time that Mugabe who is holding
> > the government party together disappears??
> >
> > In your opinion, what must be done? Is there any danger (apart from the
> > mosquitoes etc) that we could in time become like the Indians of North
> > America 9n little pockets off reservation culture?
> > It could still be called US of A?..
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Date: 2007/04/22 sö PM 01:11:57 CEST
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions
> > >
> > > About David Hasluck, I meant to write:
> > >  He, a patriotic white Zimbabwean who is NOT callous to the plight of
> > the
> > > poor Black
> > > Zimbabwean is in no doubt where to lay blame for the whole crisis,
> > squarely
> > > at Britain's door.
> > >
> > > Kabir.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/22/07, Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > OK, so now it's no longer 27 years Mugabe had? I guess you can both
> > add
> > > > and subtract? Does that not bring us back to the early nineties,
> > barely ten
> > > > years after Zimbabwe became independent in 1980? Why would you then
> > claim
> > > > that you would have solved the land question long before if you were
> > > > president of Zimbabwe?
> > > >
> > > > And how would you have done that, by flauting the agreement like
> > Britain
> > > > did? And how would you have compensated the thieves? The same Britain
> > that
> > > > pledged to bankroll the compensation process was the same one that
> > reneged
> > > > on their pledge. What options were there left to those liberation war
> > > > veterans, trust in God?
> > > >
> > > > Or should the people of Zimbabwe migrate as you suggested earlier? To
> > > > where, the sea?
> > > >
> > > > Brutal invasion of "White farms"? Hmmmm, how much more brutal than the
> > > > forebears of these white farmers when the stole the land? It's all in
> > the
> > > > records for all to consult any time. The war veterans' invasion of
> > "white
> > > > farms" was a picnic compared to what their own ancestors went through,
> > > > unless of course Black African lives are of lesser value?
> > > >
> > > > David Hasluck, the former director of Zimbabwe's white Commercial
> > Farmers
> > > > Union granted an interview<
> > http://www.swans.com/library/art9/ankomah4.html>to Baffur Ankomah the same
> > day he left office in December 2002. He, a
> > > > patriotic white Zimbabwean who is callous to the plight of the poor
> > Black
> > > > Zimbabwean is in no doubt where to lay blame for the whole crisis,
> > squarely
> > > > at Britain's door.
> > > >
> > > > Kabir.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <
> > [log in to unmask]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every Amadu, Dick and Harry knows this, as do even my non-Zimbabwean
> > > > > relatives at Oxford.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not only the ten year moratorium, but wasn't there also some talk
> > about
> > > > > COMPENSATION?
> > > > > It's during the 10 years period of grace that preparations are made.
> > > > > There are ways of measuring time, e.g. the Sabbath begins at a
> > certain
> > > > > time (the candles are lit 18 minutes before sunset and the Sabbath
> > ends at a
> > > > > certain time (when the stars come out to shine) and the people of
> > Accra and
> > > > > London know GMT.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Lancaster+House+agreement+%3A+Compensation&btnG=Search&meta=
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The ten years were up a long time ago, but perhaps the kind and
> > patient
> > > > > Mugabe (speaks good English and likes to discuss) hasn't taken the
> > right
> > > > > kind of action up till today. Why? Perhaps like Saddam he is afraid
> > of
> > > > > Toubaba and that's why he has not hanged a few and keeps on talking,
> > saying
> > > > > things like" Blair keep your England, and let me keep my Zimbabwe"
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/robertmuga361688.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Mr. Blair is keeping his England sure enough and will be keeping it
> > even
> > > > > after the next Prime Minister (Gordon Brown?) takes over Her
> > Majesty's
> > > > > Government.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=MUgabe%20quotes
> > > > >
> > > > > And the seminar in Stockholm, with Dr. Adebayo Olukoshi and some of
> > the
> > > > > Zimbabwe Embassy staff in Stockholm went through the history soon
> > after the
> > > > > first savage attacks on the white farmers started. We dwelt on the
> > Lancaster
> > > > > House Agreement for some time.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the actual time of the Lancaster House talks, some of those of
> > who
> > > > > are VERY interested in this matter were on the spot 10th September
> > 1979-10th
> > > > > December 1979
> > > > >
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Zimbabwe
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.zwnews.com/Lancasterhouse.doc
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.zwnews.com/issuefull.cfm?ArticleID=6623
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sure that no Uncle Tom bishop supports the bashing that Mugabe
> > says
> > > > > Morgan Tsvangirai deserved.
> > > > >
> > > > > About South Africa, just around that time, Shehu Shagari announced
> > at
> > > > > the UN, that Nigeria would use oil as a weapon to fight Apartheid. I
> > arrived
> > > > > in Nigeria soon thereafter and stayed for 42 months ? met a couple
> > of ANC
> > > > > there?..
> > > > >
> > > > > United we stand, divided we fall.
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: Kabir Njaay <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > > Date: 2007/04/22 sö AM 02:59:22 CEST
> > > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Ämne: Re: Fwd: Anglican Bishops Rap Sanctions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And anybody who cared to do their home work before speaking onthis
> > > > > > issue would know that there was a clause in the Lancaster House
> > > > > Agreements
> > > > > > that did not allow the Zimbabwe government to embark on Land
> > > > > Redistribution
> > > > > > until at least ten years had elapsed after the signing of the
> > > > > agreement. The
> > > > > > government of Zimbabwe commenced its moves towards Land Reform in
> > the
> > > > > early
> > > > > > 1990s. They honoured what they appended their signatures to!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kabir.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 4/22/07, Cornelius Edward Hamelberg <
> > [log in to unmask]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As one of our  brothers observed, "The pursuit of
> > > > > > > knowledge requires being exposed to various sources to enable
> > one to
> > > > > > > make an informed choice." It's a good maxim to follow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The question now facing all is, when are sanctions legal and
> > when
> > > > > can they
> > > > > > > be said to be illegal? As always ? and this includes the DEBATES
> > > > > that took
> > > > > > > place about sanctions on South Africa as to whether the
> > sanctions
> > > > > would not
> > > > > > > have more of a crippling effect on the already impoverished
> > black
> > > > > population
> > > > > > > than on the White power elite in South Africa.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=+sanctions+on+Zimbabwe
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The land in question is situated in Africa, in Zimbabwe, and
> > > > > Zimbabwe is a
> > > > > > > sovereign state ? has been for the past 27 years, during which
> > time
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > problem could have been solved ? if I were president it would
> > > > > certainly have
> > > > > > > been solved. Absolutely.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> >
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