Reading Professor Abdoulaye Saine interview for any Gambian will give 
you a sense of direction and the way forward for personal and national 
development. Gambia is the only country we can be proud of as our 
homeland. We may differ from views but we all know that our country deserve a 
better leadership than the present. Our country is already a failed 
state reading between the lines the interview with Ebrima Sankareh and DR 
Abdoulaye Saine I know I am not alone. Our political landscape at the 
moment for restoration of democracy is inert. The state of fear and the 
illegal arrest is even making the diasporan community very inactive. Today 
Yaya Jammeh is peddling about quarter baked education such as 
university of Gambia which he established. From the wording of Dr Abdoulaye 
Saine, what is the essence of university education without atmosphere of 
intellectual and academic freedom. I wish my good friend Dr Ebrima Sall 
who I have work with in VISACA  did extentive research in state
 of academic freedom in Africa. It is unfortunate but Gambia have lot 
of resourceful citizens in all discipline of our national development but 
cannot operate under the present atmosphere in which their contribution 
is needed. I am just writing a piece on climate politic and how relevant 
is to Gambia which directed me to Dr Malanding Jaiteh's research on 
land use planning and the geographical information system about the shift 
in demographic growth and unsustainable rapid urbanisation and 
population altas of our country. The literature  as a student of life sciences is the most recent coming from life science research human influence of our natural environment. It contain both qualitatative and quantitative data which requires policy intervention and participatory development approach in atmosphere of local democracy and grassroot or community involvement.



ABDOUKARIM SANNEH <[log in to unmask]> wrote:  It was three decades ago that, Professor Abdoulaye Saine of the Miami University at Oxford, Ohio quit his promising teaching career in The Gambia and immigrated to the United States to expand his intellectual horizon. With only ten US Dollars ($10) in his pocket he arrived in Denver, Colorado determined to change his life through rigorous academic work. In an academic adventure that saw him enter and exit major University halls leaving behind a trail of impressive scholarly record written in indelible academic ink from Denver in the US to Carlton, in Montreal Canada, Abdoulaye Saine tells us his arresting story. He picks it from his humble beginnings in Kaur, to the village primary school, his teachers during his formative years at Armitage, to Yundum Teachers’ Training College where he met a Psychology lecturer named Omar Barou Sey who as fortune would have it, profoundly impacted the young Abdoulaye’s life. In
 this exclusive Echo anniversary special edition, this erudite,
easy-going Gambian scholar, perhaps the humblest Gambian intellectual I know, tells us his American story and discusses the Gambian situation. Central to Professor Saine’s powerful narrative is his continuous interconnectedness to his native Gambia. He tells us his honest opinion about the current regime and how its continuous stay in power makes life terrible for our people. Our Editor in Chief, Ebrima G. Sankareh conducted the interview. 



The Echo: Professor Saine, please begin by telling us about your origins, your childhood growing up in The Gambia, your family and parents. 

Dr. Saine: Allow me to thank you first for this opportunity and to congratulate you on the splendid job you and your staff are doing. I also wish to commend you as you mark the first year anniversary of The Gambia Echo. You are rendering valuable service to Gambia and Diaspora Gambians. Needless to say, but it must be said The Gambia Echo has set high professional standards that are worthy of emulation. 

Concerning my background, I was born in Kaur in the early 1950s to Aji Marget Sowe and Seman Saine, who are both deceased. My great grandfather came to The Gambia from a village not far from Kaolack, in the region of Sine-Saloum in Senegal around the late 1800s and settled in Ballanghar, where my father was born. Relatively well to do, my father’s part of the family to this day remains large and nurturing. My mom, her younger sister and my grandmother moved to The Gambia from Mbour in Senegal, shortly before World War II and settled in Kaur after my maternal grandfather had died. My childhood was a happy one and while I grew up materially poor, the people of Kaur received my grandmother’s part of the family well. So, I do not come from a background of privilege. I grew up, like many Gambians of my generation in a closely knit community in which respect for elders, hard work, discipline and being one’s brother’s and sister’s keeper were instilled in us at an early age.


The Echo: Who were your teachers in The Gambia? Who influenced you among them? 

Dr. Saine: I was blessed to have had good and dedicated teachers who served as excellent role models. Growing up in Kaur, I was touched at an early age by the late Mr. E. T. Jeng, Ms. Marie Jeng, Mr. S. L. Bojang, the late P. G. Baker and Mr. Modou Sambou, the Headmaster at the time. Together, they gave me an excellent academic and moral grounding that was to serve me well into the future. At Armitage, we were just as blessed to have had teachers of high academic and moral standing that included the likes of Mr. James Ndow and his wife at the time (the late Speaker of the House, Mrs. Bidwell), the late Anthony Blain, Sheikh Joof, Musa Fatty, Ousman Ndow, Njanko and Bamba Njie and countless others. It is they and my parents that set me on a narrow path and armed me with the needed intellectual tools and moral compass to help me navigate the world. At Armitage my life was also influenced by the likes of Pa Ndarrow Susso, Mamour Jagne, Landing Sonko, Musa Sey, Mbye
Sanyang and Lamin Touray and many others. They were excellent role models. At the time, Armitage instilled in us discipline, hard work, responsibility and respect for one another. When I reflect on my life, other than family, Armitage made the most impact on me. At Yundum College, three former lecturers come readily to mind: the late Ms. Jane Garlic, a British lecturer who at the time taught English and English literature and Mr. George Thomas who taught African literature. Both of them reinforced my love of literature and deepened my interest in English, African literature and creative writing, which began at Armitage. Last and perhaps by far the most influential person in my life is my former lecturer of Educational Psychology, at Yundum, Mr. Omar Sey, who later became Foreign Minister. He took me under his wing and sparked in me and many of his students a critical approach to learning and the pursuit of excellence. 




The Echo: What motivated you to be a teacher and how was teaching in The Gambia prior to your trip to the US? Who were your schoolmates and friends in The Gambia and where did you teach? 

Dr. Saine: When my classmates and I graduated high school in the late 1960s, our options and opportunities for higher education were limited. There was only one “sixth form” at Gambia High and enrollment was both competitive and limited. Going to Yundum was for me equivalent to a junior college and it was excellent preparation. Upon graduation in the early 1970s, I taught English, English and African Literature for several years at Kerewan Jr. Secondary School and Crab Island before coming to the US in 1974. Being a teacher at the time earned one considerable respect and with it came the joy and responsibility to pass on to your students what former teachers had taught you. My friends, to this day include many people I grew up with in Kaur, attended Armitage and Yundum College with. I still keep in touch with many of them, perhaps not as often as I would like. They include the likes of the late Modou Musa Secka, Mustapha Penn, Dr. Alhaji Jeng, Ebou Kah, Jabel Sowe, Azz
Jagne, Kakai Sanyang, Bambo Dampha, Musa Gaye, Sheriff Ndure, Ousman Yabo, Keluntang Camara, to name a few. And my schoolmates were Alieu Ngum, Dr. Karl Bayo, Habib Choi, Lamin Fatty, Alpha Jallow, Mariam Sey, Sainabou Ceesay and many others. I truly cherish these friendships from my past and have made many more, globally. 

The Echo: How did you chose America for your advance University training, who and what motivated you to come to the United States to study? 

Dr. Saine: Perhaps it is more accurate to say that America was chosen for me. Mr. Omar Sey, who had studied in the US before his return to teach at Yundum College, made the arrangements to live with an American family and study in Denver, Colorado. I was attracted to the American educational system because of its wide offerings and flexibility. 

The Echo: If I think of my own transition to the States, I am curious what yours may have been like. How did it start after your arrival in the States; was it as easy as anticipated? 

Dr. Saine: My transition to the American educational system occurred with relative ease and living with a family and being hosted by a network of families helped considerably. That support proved invaluable and it is one that I still rely upon. For many, the US was and still is the land of opportunity. While I went through many challenges, too many to detail here, I have often asked rhetorically, where else could a poor young man from Kaur, who arrived in US with $10 in his pocket be given so much opportunity? This is not only my story but also the story of many a Gambian and other immigrants to the US. While many countries in Europe provide similar opportunity, it is in the US, perhaps because of its size, wealth and immigrant-based cultures where one is availed more opportunity, notwithstanding the current immigration debate and impasse. In the year I arrived in Denver, I was the only Gambian for several years and the population of Gambians students and professionals
was indeed smaller. This was a major challenge.

The Echo: Could you please revisit the political climate in your first days in the US? 

Dr. Saine: The political climate in the US at the time was one of excitement and disillusionment occurring as it did during the Cold War, the Vietnam War and Watergate. American troops were withdrawing from Vietnam as American Asian kids and Vietnamese refugees were being transported by air to the US as well. Additionally, President Nixon had just been impeached, leading to his resignation and subsequent pardon by President Ford. It was also a time of much domestic turmoil over bussing and other civil-rights concerns for Blacks/African Americans. These events were occurring in the aftermath of the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and his brother, Bobby, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X and race relations were tense. There was a perceptible decline in US prestige abroad and American self-confidence dipped as well. These were accompanied and made worse by pervasive skepticism toward government and politicians. It was this wave of
deep-seated disenchantment that brought President Carter to power in 1976, but American self-confidence and sense of purpose were not to be restored by Carter but by President Reagan and his conservative social revolution. In later years, Reagan’s administration was to be dogged by scandals such as “The Iran-Contra Affair,” and Oliver North’s role in it, which began the unraveling of his foreign policy. 

The Echo: Who funded your education, what schools did you go to and what did you read? 

Dr. Saine: I was blessed to have received from the University of Denver (DU) in 1975 a full undergraduate academic scholarship, which enabled me to graduate in political science & Economics and a Philosophy Minor in three years with Honors. In August 1978, I received a Canadian Government fellowship and was enrolled at the Norman Patterson School of International Affairs at Carleton University, where in 1979, I received an M.A. I subsequently returned to the University of Denver in the Fall of 1980 to do another M.A. and in 1989 completed a Ph.D. at the Graduate School of International Studies. Here, I emphasized international politics, Global political economy, Conflict Resolution, Comparative Politics, and African/Third World Development Studies among other sub-disciplines. My education at Denver, this time was funded partly by the School. I also worked at several jobs to support myself and fund my education.

The Echo: What was the political climate like in Africa/Gambia and how did that influence your specialty? 

Dr. Saine: The 1960s, early 1970s, the era of African political independence generated considerable excitement and high expectations among both the leadership and populations of Africa, Gambia and Gambians were no exceptions. It was hoped that independence would help ameliorate the enduring vestiges of the colonial era and usher in a period of social and economic improvement, which it partly did. Thereupon, a combination of external economic shocks plunged African economies and Gambia’s into a downward spiral during the 1980s, now dubbed the “Lost Decade.” This was not an African phenomenon exclusively as most non-oil producing countries of the Third World felt the effects of the Lost Decade. This period also witnessed a contraction of political space in most African countries, especially for opposition parties and the growing concentration of power in the executive branch of Government. My goal was then to return home after my B.A., but later felt that I needed to
further my education. When I left Gambia my goal was to become a creative writer or a student of languages. Events in both Gambia and Africa changed that to the majors I mentioned earlier. My academic specialties were, therefore, driven primarily by events in Gambia and Africa generally and the extent to which I could use them upon my return.

The Echo: Did you ever think of packing your books and going home or were you never bothered by nostalgia especially, with all your family and friends in The Gambia? 

Dr. Saine: If you mean whether I missed home, friends and family, I absolutely did and still do. Even after thirty or more years in the US, a day does not go by without thinking about The Gambia, friends and family. It is difficult not to think about Gambia and like many Gambians and immigrants for that matter there is the fervent hope of return. Ultimately, my goal is to return to Gambia. 


The Echo: After you graduated PhD was it within your contemplation to return and serve your country of birth? I have read elsewhere that you were never interested in The Gambia until after the coup and I wonder how true this allegation is? 

Dr. Saine: Yes, I had tried to return home following graduation from Carleton in 1979 and shortly after I earned my doctorate in 1989, without success. I had written several letters to the Permanent Secretary at the PMO but the response indicated that they did not have any opening for me at the time. I was not deterred and decided then to work for three years and return with or without the prospect of a job. In fact, I succeeded in securing funding to get me started and then the coup occurred. I was still determined to return and visited Gambia in May 1995 to get a sense of events in the country since the coup. It was clear that living under a military dictatorship was not going to be an easy task. In the end, I decided to stay in the US, and I am glad I did. It has also been said that I am opposed to the current regime because of a loss of privilege. Nothing could be further from the truth. My love and interest in Gambia has not been dulled by time or
distance and my long absence has made me all the more fond of Gambia. Let me also suggest that one can serve without being physically in Gambia. Thousands of Diaspora Gambians in their various walks of life, including you and your staff and paper serve and represent Gambia well and give it a good name. Many in Gambia do likewise. Yet, there are Gambians in Gambia who have made Gambia and Gambians the butt of tasteless jokes and they do not legitimately represent interests of Gambians, especially the poor. I sincerely believe that Jammeh and his cohort have given Gambia a bad name, especially over his bogus “discovery” of a cure for HIV/AIDS and Asthma. And certainly Jammeh, in my humble view, does not serve the interest of Gambians but his own and those immediately around him. In a career that has spanned almost a quarter century, I believe that I have represented Gambia and Gambians well.

The Echo: What did you investigate in your doctorate dissertation and how significant is that to The Gambia? As a professor you love to teach and write, tell us some of the things you have written thus far and some of your plans in the future? 

Dr. Saine: My dissertation was on Military Interventions in Africa and it looked at the 1965 coups in the Congo, Ghana in 1966 and the 1981-foiled coup in The Gambia. More importantly, it sought to compare and contrast “Modernization” and “Marxist” Theories of Development and Conflict and their respective strengths and weaknesses in explaining and predicting coups in Africa. As it turned out, my dissertation was indeed timely as military-rule was soon to unfold in Gambia, five years later. I have been blessed to devote much of my recent scholarly endeavors on West Africa and Gambia, specifically. I have, therefore, written widely on democratic transitions, elections, human rights and other issues that include female circumcision. This year alone, I have four academic journal articles to be published shortly on The Gambia as well as a several book-chapters and entries in Africa Contemporary Record and other academic outlets. I have also just completed a
book-manuscript, which is now under review at several publishing houses on “The Gambia under A (F) PRC Rule: 1994-2007.” I am collaborating with several friends and colleagues in editing a volume of “Essays on The Gambia” and another on “Recent Elections in West Africa,” among other projects. In sum, I have a very active research and writing agenda. In a sense, I gave up creative writing for what I do now, and I enjoy both.

The Echo: Do you have plans to teach in a Gambian University in your lifetime? 

Dr. Saine: Absolutely, I do, but not under Yahya Jammeh’s despotic rule. He has little respect for serious scholars and intellectual freedom. Yet, to his credit he established the University of The Gambia. I look forward to the day when I can teach several classes at the University, to have them use my work and those of other scholars that are theoretically different and encourage them just as my teachers did to be the best they can be and think critically. This is only possible under a democratic government.



The Echo: Since the 1994 military coup, you have written a lot about Africa and The Gambia. What is your prediction for Africa in general and The Gambia in particular? 

Dr. Saine: Predictions are at best hazardous. That said, I believe Gambia’s development trajectory and Africa’s, generally are good but only under new leadership of a different caliber. I foresee civil strife in the continent finally subsiding and prudent macroeconomic policies taking root and democracy consolidating. These will take time but we have no other option if we wish to reverse the many challenges Africa and Gambia face. There are good indications of these occurring in spite the spread and ravages of HIV/AIDS and economic downturn in some countries. It is imperative, therefore, that Gambia and Africa position themselves to harness, while at the same time reducing the negative effects of economic globalization. Many countries in the continent are doing just that.

The Echo: As a political scientist, what is your greatest fear about The Gambia and what can be done to alley your fear? 

Dr. Saine: My greatest fear for Gambia is national disintegration similar to what occurred in Sierra Leone and Liberia. This is not a remote possibility as there are troubling signs of impending economic collapse. Already, Gambia ranks high among countries at the brink of collapse. At one time many believed a coup could never happen in Gambia. There was a strong and widespread sense of Gambian “exceptionalism.” We must never be lulled into accepting that attitude again. I am fearful of the wave of refugees into Gambia because of instability in Cassamance. Such instability is likely to spillover and in doing so further expose Gambia to more instability. Relations between Senegal and Gambia are also likely to worsen, which leaves Gambia vulnerable. To alley these prospects, all Gambians have a moral responsibility to bring about or support peaceful democratic change. And to the contrary, we must not “ leave politics to the politicians.” Politics is much too
important to be left to the politicians alone. This is what I hope for the rest of the continent as well.

The Echo: Relations with Senegal-what in your view is the best option for our two governments vis-à-vis-peoples? 


Dr. Saine: The time is long overdue for Gambia and Senegal to revisit their current relations and work toward a new and improved confederation or other political arrangement. The current status quo leaves much to be desired and works against the best interests of both countries. Their continued separate existence will continue to breed mutual suspicion, escalate ongoing tensions and undermine economic growth and prosperity. If Gambia and Senegal were to form a political and economic union, it could literally steal the thunder from under the Cassamance separatists, while simultaneously addressing their political needs and aspirations. The latter would be more effectively integrated into the Gambia, while at the same time giving both Gambia and Cassamance degrees of relative political and economic autonomy. This way, security and political stability, elements so crucial to economic development would be ensured. 

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